G
Gnosis
Guest
Yes, but equivalent imagery in the old testament is this:
When I tick my father off, he sticks a ten inch blade in my stomach or drowns his grandchildren.
- Status
When I tick my father off, he sticks a ten inch blade in my stomach or drowns his grandchildren.
R
ReformedCatholic
Guest
Also, your father’s loving correction or punishment is given with an intent to help you learn and so that you will ultimately be a better person. It is (or should not) also be done out of anger, vengance or wrath.
The OT uses those very words! “God’s wrath…” “The Lord’s vengance…” and so forth.
R
ReformedCatholic
Guest
That should teach you to come home ten minutes after curfew!
W
wisdom_3_5
Guest
I think the OPer should try to understand salvation history. Sure, when you read about God’s wrath out of context its going to seem incompatible with the God that Jesus teaches us. Here is a link to “Our Father’s Plan” reading through the bible.
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-306548622&T1=
God is the same yesterday, today and always.
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-306548622&T1=
God is the same yesterday, today and always.
K
kevb
Guest
Wow, I didn’t expect this to get so heated! I had absolutely no intention of offending anyone. The Holy Trinity has always been and always will be eternal and unchanging. I take my Catholic faith VERY seriously, and all I wondered was how the Catholic Church interprets the issues I mentioned in my original post. I felt that they were valid questions that anyone truly looking to understand scripture might ask themselves. Your answers here have been explained quite thoughtfully and make a lot of sense. I just need to open my mind a little more and put everything in context when reading the OT. Can anyone recommend a good book for someone looking to make all the right connections between the OT and NT? Thank you to everyone and God bless! 
W
wisdom_3_5
Guest
This is a great study that puts salvation history into perspective. I went to the seminar when it was in my area. It was just two days and a quick overview, but I learned alot. Our parish DRE bought the package for the 24 week study, but they haven’t started it yet (huge parish building project going on now, so maybe this summer it will start).
thebibletimeline.com/Teachers/
Sorry if my other link didn’t work.
thebibletimeline.com/Teachers/
Sorry if my other link didn’t work.
R
ReformedCatholic
Guest
wisdom 3:5:
But if God is the God Christ speaks of, then “God’s wrath” is an oxymoron. It’s like “holy war.” It doesn’t make sense given the specific definitions and contradiction of the terms.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Kevb,
God in the Old Testament puts people to physical death to deter them from sin. Jesus teaches He will put New Testament people to spiritual death to deter them from sin. Which is actually more wrathful? Physical death punishments or spiritual death punishments?
Please visit WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All
NAB REV 2:22
“I mean to cast her down on a bed of pain; her companions in sin I will plunge into intense suffering unless they repent of their sins with her, and her children I will put to death. Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds, and that I will give each of you what your conduct deserves.”
NAB MAT 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NAB JOH 5:27
“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.”
**NAB MAT 18:21 **
’You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."
**NAB2 LUK 13:23 **
Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough. After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say to you in reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ And you will say, ‘We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.’ Then he will say to you, 'I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’ And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.
NAB MAT 7:13
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
God in the Old Testament puts people to physical death to deter them from sin. Jesus teaches He will put New Testament people to spiritual death to deter them from sin. Which is actually more wrathful? Physical death punishments or spiritual death punishments?
Please visit WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All
NAB REV 2:22
“I mean to cast her down on a bed of pain; her companions in sin I will plunge into intense suffering unless they repent of their sins with her, and her children I will put to death. Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds, and that I will give each of you what your conduct deserves.”
NAB MAT 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NAB JOH 5:27
“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.”
**NAB MAT 18:21 **
’You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."
**NAB2 LUK 13:23 **
Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few people be saved?” He answered them, "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough. After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say to you in reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ And you will say, ‘We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.’ Then he will say to you, 'I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’ And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.
NAB MAT 7:13
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
E
Elizabeth_B
Guest
For most of us, the issue of apparent contradictions is too deep and complex to address in such a limited space. I also recommend Jeff Cavins material to get better insight, or perhaps a Bible Study led by an experienced and well-educated facilitator.Wow, I didn’t expect this to get so heated! I had absolutely no intention of offending anyone. The Holy Trinity has always been and always will be eternal and unchanging. I take my Catholic faith VERY seriously, and all I wondered was how the Catholic Church interprets the issues I mentioned in my original post. I felt that they were valid questions that anyone truly looking to understand scripture might ask themselves. Your answers here have been explained quite thoughtfully and make a lot of sense. I just need to open my mind a little more and put everything in context when reading the OT. Can anyone recommend a good book for someone looking to make all the right connections between the OT and NT? Thank you to everyone and God bless!
God is the same in both the Old and New Testament, it is mankind and society that changes. As Steve Merten points out, there are many examples of God’s promise of justice in the NT, just as there are many examples of His love and mercy in the OT.
R
ReformedCatholic
Guest
I agree with this. The OT seems to be more of a historical depiction of events in terms of how the people back then “viewed” God and His actions. Although divinely inspired, I do not believe it to be inspired on the same level or as infallable as the NT.
V
volzcpa
Guest
Divine inspiration and inerrancy are absolutes. Either the bible is inspired by God or it is not. There can not be levels of inspiration as God is perfect and a lower level of inspiration would be contrary to his perfection. Inerrancy or infallability by definition are absolutes as the are defined as never erring. I suggest that you read the CCC numbers 120 through 130 to see the Catholic Church’s teaching on the Old Testament.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Reformed Catholic,
Can you confirm that you do believe in Jesus’ New Testament teachings on eternal punishment, fires of Gehhenna, and the damnation of souls?
WARNING! Jesus Does Not Forgive All
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
A
Al_Masetti
Guest
This is just me writing:
In the Old Testament, God was trying to “get people’s attention” by using a 2x4 as a club.
After about 3000 years of striking people dead and making them walk for 40 years back and forth across deserts, their consciousness had been successfully raised.
Then, Jesus arrived on the scene.
He said he wouldn’t do that stuff any more. But he was mandating a certain level of kindness, as well as certain mandated observances for which there would be eternal life in Heaven (the carrot) with the hellfire being reserved for the next life, if necessary (the stick).
In the Old Testament, God was trying to “get people’s attention” by using a 2x4 as a club.
After about 3000 years of striking people dead and making them walk for 40 years back and forth across deserts, their consciousness had been successfully raised.
Then, Jesus arrived on the scene.
He said he wouldn’t do that stuff any more. But he was mandating a certain level of kindness, as well as certain mandated observances for which there would be eternal life in Heaven (the carrot) with the hellfire being reserved for the next life, if necessary (the stick).
R
ReformedCatholic
Guest
Maybe, maybe not. God is perfect, but man is not. God can inspire man, and man can choose by free will to completely follow the inspiration, part of it, or none of it. The inspiration remains perfect, but man’s choices can limit the effects or results of such inspiration and therefore result in levels of “inspiration.” This would also mean that there could be fallability.
R
ReformedCatholic
Guest
Steven Merten:
Do you take all of what was said literally?
I find it strange that in the messages contained in the passages on that site, that you choose to focus on the negative aspects of what He was talking about rather than the point of the various parables and quotations. I view them as teachings on forgiveness, how to treat others, and “being like children.”
I can confirm, though, that Gahenna was a huge trash dump outside the city that burned for months at a time. He used it as a metaphor. To make a point.
Also, it would help to illustrate the true topic of the teaching if these quotes were allowed to remain in context.
That’s it? That’s all he said about eternal punishment and damnation? That doesn’t seem like a whole lot of talking about something for an awfully long NT.
Do you take all of what was said literally?
I find it strange that in the messages contained in the passages on that site, that you choose to focus on the negative aspects of what He was talking about rather than the point of the various parables and quotations. I view them as teachings on forgiveness, how to treat others, and “being like children.”
I can confirm, though, that Gahenna was a huge trash dump outside the city that burned for months at a time. He used it as a metaphor. To make a point.
Also, it would help to illustrate the true topic of the teaching if these quotes were allowed to remain in context.
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Reformed Catholic,
Are you speaking for the “Reformed Catholic church”? I have never heard of this Protestant church. Is it new?
Are you speaking for the beliefs of your Protestant “Reformed Catholic” church or are you a non-member of the Catholic Church trying to speak for the Catholic Church on the Catholic Church’s interpretation of wrathful OT verses?
Are you speaking for the “Reformed Catholic church”? I have never heard of this Protestant church. Is it new?
Are you speaking for the beliefs of your Protestant “Reformed Catholic” church or are you a non-member of the Catholic Church trying to speak for the Catholic Church on the Catholic Church’s interpretation of wrathful OT verses?
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Catholics,
How do you interpert Jesus teachings on eternal punishment?
NAB MAT 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
NAB MAT 7:13
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. LUK 16:19 The Rich Man and Lazarus
"There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here,** whereas you are tormented**. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’ He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’"continued:
How do you interpert Jesus teachings on eternal punishment?
NAB MAT 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
NAB MAT 7:13
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. LUK 16:19 The Rich Man and Lazarus
"There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here,** whereas you are tormented**. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’ He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’"continued:
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
continued from above:
NAB MAT 13:47-50The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth.
NAB MAT 18:21
Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus answered, “I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times. That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt. At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’ Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan. When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt. Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair. His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” NAB JOH 5:27
“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.”
NAB MAT 13:47-50The reign of God is also like a dragnet thrown into the lake, which collected all sorts of things. When it was full they hauled it ashore and sat down to put what was worthwhile into containers. What was useless they threw away. That is how it will be at the end of the world. Angels will go out and separate the wicked from the just and hurl the wicked into the fiery furnace, where they will wail and grind their teeth.
NAB MAT 18:21
Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus answered, “I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times. That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt. At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’ Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan. When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt. Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair. His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” NAB JOH 5:27
“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.”
R
ReformedCatholic
Guest
Steven Merten:
I think Jesus was using metaphors and hyperbole to get his point across. I do believe there will be those that choose evil and will do such harm to others that they will experience an “eternal” damnation, or hell.
I speak only for myself. I make no assertion to speak for any church of any kind. Although I was baptised and raised Roman Catholic, I have some views that differ from some of the church’s teachings. I have an affiliation with the Reformed Catholic Church, which I believe was founded in 1995. It traces it’s Apostolic Succession through the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht.
I think Jesus was using metaphors and hyperbole to get his point across. I do believe there will be those that choose evil and will do such harm to others that they will experience an “eternal” damnation, or hell.
- Status