How does the Church reconcile statements from Unitatis Redintegratio such as

[jwinch2]

“In certain circumstances, it is allowable, indeed desirable, that Catholics join in prayer with their separated brethren.”-Unitatis Redintegratio

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

…with earlier statements from the Church such as these:

• No one must either pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: Let him be excommunicated. Council of Carthage

• If any clergyman or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meetings of heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of Communion. III Council of Constantinople

• That the faithful and clergy should pray for Christian unity under the leadership of heretics can in no way be tolerated. Ven. Pope Pius IX

• Is it permitted for Catholics to be present at, or take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement all who in any way lay claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! It is clear, therefore, why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics. There is only one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, and that is by furthering the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from her. Pope Pius XI

Now, before anyone get’s the wrong idea, I personally do not have a problem with praying with other Christians, etc. What does concern me however, is the appearance of a 180 deg turn in Church teaching on this matter. I would imagine that there is something I am missing so, in the spirit of Pope Benedict’s call to read the documents of Vatican II in continuity with the Sacred Tradition of the Church, any insight on how UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO is congruent is appreciated.

I did find this: ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUR40Y.HTM, and while they did touch on this idea, it was not gone into in any real depth.

Thanks in advance, and peace of Christ.

 

[Verbum]

Hi jwinch,

There is no appearance of a 180 degree change . It is a reality. What was considered good for the Church at one time is no longer good. Times change. People change. These are matters of discipline, not doctrine. The council underlines this in the following passage :

But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians.

This speaks for itself.

Verbum

 

[jwinch2]

Hi jwinch,

There is no appearance of a 180 degree change . It is a reality. What was considered good for the Church at one time is no longer good. Times change. People change. These are matters of discipline, not doctrine.

Thank you for your comments. Do you have any sources or reading on these being matters of discipline rather than doctrine? The statements of the Popes are perhaps reconcilable in that way, but the Councils of Carthage and Constantinople would seem at first glance to rise beyond discipline.

Peace of Christ,

 

[Ghosty]

Thank you for your comments. Do you have any sources or reading on these being matters of discipline rather than doctrine? The statements of the Popes are perhaps reconcilable in that way, but the Councils of Carthage and Constantinople would seem at first glance to rise beyond discipline.

Peace of Christ,

It is clear from the very wording of the documents that it is disciplinary and not doctrinal. The statements involve actions and punishments for those actions, and do not lay out any fundamental doctrinal objections.

Peace and God bless!

 

[dmar198]

Thank you for your comments. Do you have any sources or reading on these being matters of discipline rather than doctrine? The statements of the Popes are perhaps reconcilable in that way, but the Councils of Carthage and Constantinople would seem at first glance to rise beyond discipline.

Peace of Christ,

The councils of Carthage and Constantinople merely gave canonical penalties to the act of praying with heretics. When the Church changed its practice, these penalties were removed. The provisions against praying with non-Catholics are no longer present since the revision of the Code of Canon Law in 1983. It was strictly a matter of disciplinary change, which is one reason why the Canon Law was updated, and the canonical penalties of the councils of Carthage and Constantinople dispensed with.

 

[Elizium23]

To take this even further, Protestants and Orthodox Christians are not heretics in the legal sense of the word. Born into schism, they are not bound by the laws of the Catholic Church. They cannot be considered “schismatic” or “heretic” any more than my atheist neighbor can be excommunicated for apostasy. The laws of the Catholic Church bind only those baptized into it.

 

[Genesis315]

First, I’m not sure where you’re getting your quotes from. Do you have more precise citations? For example, I can’t find the quote for the Third Council of Constantinople in that Councils documents.

Second, they persent a one-sided picture. Historically there were other exceptions. Just prior to Vatican II, Pius XII permitted Catholics to participate with non-Catholics in common endeavors (like protexting the natural law) or in conferences where each other’s faith could be explained, and he approved of joint praying of things like the Our Father or other non-heretical prayers.
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECUM.HTM

Prior to that, Leo XIII permitted the establishment of the Confraternity of Compassion, which was an organization run by the Sulplician father where Catholics and non-Catholics could pray together for unity.
newadvent.org/cathen/15132a.htm

Likewise, during the Reunion Councils between East and West, before the doctrinal issues were hashed out, delegates from both sides prayed together for unity.

Note, Vatican II says this is ok in certain circumstances–not that it is always ok. It seems historially, it can be desireable when it is done to aid in the cause of unity, and where there is no harm or risk of indifferentism to the Catholic faith. For example, in Mortalium Animos, the groups being forbidden to Catholics were those of the pan-Christian movements, which sought to create a false unity based on the lowest common denominator, not to encourage true unity.

 

[jwinch2]

Thank you everyone for your responses and the information you have provided. You have given me some things to look up for further information and to pray about.

Peace,