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Thorwald
Guest
I put aside my accounting work, and found the scripture that I was referring to. 1 Corinthians chpt 14 (especially the verses near the end of the chapter.
Thorwald Johansen
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Thorwald Johansen
V
Verisimilitude
Guest
The justification of such prophecy is as follows:I put aside my accounting work, and found the scripture that I was referring to. 1 Corinthians chpt 14 (especially the verses near the end of the chapter.
Thorwald Johansen
With respect to the more common person acting in this manner 1 Corinthians 14: 27-33 should be heeded, but to the larger point of Luther and those who follow his divergence from the Church he once belonged to the bolded sentence would exclude his validity since he did not do what he himself taught. Do Protestants claim he used this method of tongues or prophecy, and as such validates his ‘truth’ over that of the Church?
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Thorwald
Guest
Thank you for your response. In terms of ‘Do Protestants claim…’ (above), it is I, and I alone, making these responses.
I simply bring up the question, “If the scriptures are stating that there is communication between God and man, that provides some sort of ‘revelation???’, and we are to discuss these revelations amongst ourselves, then why aren’t we doing it?” This applies to **all **Christian Churches. The only thing we ever see in churches, is someone giving us a spiel, as if there is no communication between God and others that is currently taking place. The ministers/teachers have **‘put a wall up’ **against these possible revelations.
Thorwald Johansen
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I prefer to think that the (Neo)platonists were/wanted to be Muslim.
Suhrawardi, for instance, places Plato above not only Muslim philosophers like al-Farabi (who are mired in logic), but even above certain Muslim saints like al-Hallaj (who have illumination, but no ability to express it rationally), in the pursuit of union with Allah (swt).
Plotinus & Proclus, Muslims ?
The only thing I know about Al-Hallaj was that he came to a nasty end 
H
Hypatia
Guest
dontcha think?Plotinus & Proclus, Muslims
I
Proclus. A copy of the Elements of Theology sits on my shelf right beside the Qur’an (along with some Suhrawardi and Mulla Sadra).Suhrawardi numbers al-Hallaj in a group of a certain number of Sufi saints and sees them as paradigmatic examples of the heights and limits of Sufi illumination. They are the peak of what can be achieved in the absence of an ability to join illumination to some sort of rational/philosophical explication.The only thing I know about Al-Hallaj was that he came to a nasty end
Things did not end well for Hallaj for sure!
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
But - why should unity be always & in all contexts preferred to multiplicity ? To say “one” at all, is - surely ? - to imply “one what ?” In both cases, we are talking about Divine being; & the Divine is so utterly “other than” all being that is not Divine, that to speak of it at all is a form of untruth. ISTM that we can’t even say “God is God”, but only “God”. And even that is a word, & not God. AFAICS, neither number is prior to the other when God is spoken of.
God is not instantiated at all - that implies finite being, & God is not finite. It implies division & materiality: they are inapplicable too. This is where the doctrine of the simplicity of God is so helpful. God is One, Unique, Eternal, Infinite - but this is not a hindrance to His “Tri-Personality”: ISTM that this is no more a contradiction than to say that a material body can be a cube & be blue: colour & shape are incommensurable, & yet, they can be united by a third term. I’m guessing, but maybe incommensurability can be a clue - albeit one that needs correcting by other clues - to apprehending God as One & Three.Just a few ideas.
I think that this mystery can be known to human persons only by being made known as a Person.
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matahari
Guest
Hi Thorwald, In John Ch.17 Jesus prayed to His Father for the total unity of all believers. He also said " I will not leave you orphans" Before he returned to his Father in heaven he had established his church with teaching authority; He had promised “I AM with you ALWAYS and the gates of hell will not prevail against you. As you are aware there are now apx. thirty thousand Protestant denominations, none of them able to be in agreement or unity with each other. Also, in 2Peter 3 : 15,16 we read " And regard the long-suffering of Our Lord as salvation .Just as our most dear brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given him, has written to you, as indeed he did in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. In these epistles there are certain things difficult to understand, which the unlearned and the unstable distort, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures also, to their own destruction” Peace brotherThank you for your response. In terms of ‘Do Protestants claim…’ (above), it is I, and I alone, making these responses.
I simply bring up the question, “If the scriptures are stating that there is communication between God and man, that provides some sort of ‘revelation???’, and we are to discuss these revelations amongst ourselves, then why aren’t we doing it?” This applies to **all **Christian Churches. The only thing we ever see in churches, is someone giving us a spiel, as if there is no communication between God and others that is currently taking place. The ministers/teachers have **‘put a wall up’ **against these possible revelations.
Thorwald Johansen
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Thorwald
Guest
Hi. Thanks for the response. This is exactly the point that I am trying to make. God wants all of us to turn to Him, We constantly see all kinds of ‘wierd’ interpretations of the scriptures, by different ministries (albeit Protestantism is the worst). Do you not think, that God is searching out from the members of different congregations, and choosing some to help ‘correct’ inaccurate beliefs? If He was so concerned with our salvation, that He provided His only begotten Son for our salvation, would He not also steer the ‘lost sheep’ that seek Him, in the right direction? Has any ministry received ‘all of the answers’, or is God constantly ‘sending correction messages’ through believers in the various congregations? If He is, then this would serve two purposes;
- Correction for those that are teaching in error.
- Persecution for true believers, that received ‘the message’, but are not believed. Perhaps, they are even ‘asked to leave the church’, thus fulfilling God’s prophesy of this happening to those that are righteous true believers.
Thorwald Johansen
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jen_fla
Guest
hi thorwald. do you suppose you could take your issues with the authority of the Holy Catholic Church elsewhere? there are SO many other threads regarding the topics you are bringing up.Hi. Thanks for the response. This is exactly the point that I am trying to make. God wants all of us to turn to Him, We constantly see all kinds of ‘wierd’ interpretations of the scriptures, by different ministries (albeit Protestantism is the worst). Do you not think, that God is searching out from the members of different congregations, and choosing some to help ‘correct’ inaccurate beliefs? If He was so concerned with our salvation, that He provided His only begotten Son for our salvation, would He not also steer the ‘lost sheep’ that seek Him, in the right direction? Has any ministry received ‘all of the answers’, or is God constantly ‘sending correction messages’ through believers in the various congregations? If He is, then this would serve two purposes;
Just a thought.
- Correction for those that are teaching in error.
- Persecution for true believers, that received ‘the message’, but are not believed. Perhaps, they are even ‘asked to leave the church’, thus fulfilling God’s prophesy of this happening to those that are righteous true believers.
Thorwald Johansen
this one is about helping our muslim friends understand Trinity.
thanks.
I
inJESUS
Guest
[/QUOTE]
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CSUNGerrie
Guest
Hypatia,AWESOME question!!!
Can I try? The answer is one word–Community!
Think about it–we’re constantly at it! We’re even doing it right now!
Jesus implied a likeness between the unity of God’s sons when He prayed to the Father in John 17:21-22. The Church teaches us about this in Gaudium et Spes where she directly draws a parallel from the union of the divine Persons and the “…union of the sons of God in truth and love.” This validates the use of human community as a model for the Trinity.
God did not make man as a solitary being, he must relate himself to others, forming one family and dealing with each other in a spirit of brotherhood. Indeed, we are all destined to the same end: God Himself as everyone has been created in the likeness of God who
“…made from one every nation of men who live on all the face of the earth.”
Gaudium et Spes directly draws a parallel from the union of the divine Persons and the “…union of the sons of God in truth and love.” Can you see how this uses human community itself as a model to show us the Trinity and thus offers a challenge to us for a journey into God?
Ultimately, the mystery and doctrine of the Trinity means that the God who created us, who sustains us, who will judge us and give us eternal life is not a totally transcendent God utterly removed from us, rather He is a God of absolute proximity, communicated in flesh, in history, within our human family. He is a God who is present in the spiritual depths of our being and apex of our unfolding history as the source of enlightenment and community.
The Trinity is the transcendent Archetype of unity-in-love-without-rivalry. This, I propose, is the challenge we are set by God.
To piggyback of FF’s post I think would HIGHLY recommend you watch these short clips of Ravi Zacharias addressing an audience members question on what good is the trinity? I think it would give you a good answer to part of your question.
He gives an AMAZING answer that will leave you thinking further:
youtube.com/watch?v=kreSbagj_RM
youtube.com/watch?v=FIiae2L0tOc&feature=related
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nohamaria
Guest
How beleiving in the Trinity of God can Help us?
This is the main question of the thread and my reply
will be accordingly.
The Trinity of God is not human invention, it is God’s revelation
to Humans. It is complete understanding is over humans minds.
Therefore , it is accepted by faith and explained as it is
revealed not more.
God appears from Genesis, Ot. Nt , as Trinity but the
secret of it have been revealed with the Christ.
The God Creator or (Az-Zat) = (The Self), is The Father;
The Verb Of God = The Son
and The Holy Spirit, all Three exist in One God.
With the NT, Jesus , The Christ,is the Verb Of God Incarnated,
and, That He and with He The Trinity Secret have been revealed.
We beleive on His Words not because He is a prophet, nor
because angels of God revealed it to Him,
but because of His Great Dead and Miracles that cannot
be accomplished by any humanbeens, only by God Himself.
The Trinity doctrine help me because by beleiving on a Father,
a Son and a Holy Spirit , I discern a more intimate relationship
based on love and caring.
By Beleiving on the Christ( The Verb Of God Incarnated ) and
following his example as human , I become God’s Child
and never His Slave, I win resurrection And Eternal
life like The Christ .
One more important thing is God’s Mercy.It is given to us
By the Eucharist, Where God is still with us daily and at
every moment we seek for him.God Exist daily with me,
He love me , Forgive me when I repent , and care for me.
This cannot be granted to me if I don’t beleive on The
Trinity Of God and on the relationship , established by God Himself,
between Him and humans as a Father and Us as His Children. This relationship
exist When only, and exclusively only, we follow the example of Life
and The Teaching, of The Verb Of God Incarnated, Who is The Christ.
I can’t beleive on other conception of God because it is
completely contradictory to itself.
How God love us when I beleive he is far away from me?
How He cares for me when He is Almighty and Punish me or
send somebody to kill me when I sin?
How he is mercy when He does’nt understand my weakness
and don’t forgive me and don’t listen to my repentance, but,
at the only case when I martyr myself for Him?
Before discussing The Trinity with us , would you please see how
your conception of God will take you to salvation, and whether
what you worship is The True Perfect , Merciful, Loving God,
or an Unfair, so far, full of contradictions God…
Yes , I refuse worshipping such God.
Salam
Nohamaria.
This is the main question of the thread and my reply
will be accordingly.
The Trinity of God is not human invention, it is God’s revelation
to Humans. It is complete understanding is over humans minds.
Therefore , it is accepted by faith and explained as it is
revealed not more.
God appears from Genesis, Ot. Nt , as Trinity but the
secret of it have been revealed with the Christ.
The God Creator or (Az-Zat) = (The Self), is The Father;
The Verb Of God = The Son
and The Holy Spirit, all Three exist in One God.
With the NT, Jesus , The Christ,is the Verb Of God Incarnated,
and, That He and with He The Trinity Secret have been revealed.
We beleive on His Words not because He is a prophet, nor
because angels of God revealed it to Him,
but because of His Great Dead and Miracles that cannot
be accomplished by any humanbeens, only by God Himself.
The Trinity doctrine help me because by beleiving on a Father,
a Son and a Holy Spirit , I discern a more intimate relationship
based on love and caring.
By Beleiving on the Christ( The Verb Of God Incarnated ) and
following his example as human , I become God’s Child
and never His Slave, I win resurrection And Eternal
life like The Christ .
One more important thing is God’s Mercy.It is given to us
By the Eucharist, Where God is still with us daily and at
every moment we seek for him.God Exist daily with me,
He love me , Forgive me when I repent , and care for me.
This cannot be granted to me if I don’t beleive on The
Trinity Of God and on the relationship , established by God Himself,
between Him and humans as a Father and Us as His Children. This relationship
exist When only, and exclusively only, we follow the example of Life
and The Teaching, of The Verb Of God Incarnated, Who is The Christ.
I can’t beleive on other conception of God because it is
completely contradictory to itself.
How God love us when I beleive he is far away from me?
How He cares for me when He is Almighty and Punish me or
send somebody to kill me when I sin?
How he is mercy when He does’nt understand my weakness
and don’t forgive me and don’t listen to my repentance, but,
at the only case when I martyr myself for Him?
Before discussing The Trinity with us , would you please see how
your conception of God will take you to salvation, and whether
what you worship is The True Perfect , Merciful, Loving God,
or an Unfair, so far, full of contradictions God…
Yes , I refuse worshipping such God.
Salam
Nohamaria.
H
Hypatia
Guest
Unity is to be preferred for the same reason that it is logically necessary that there be one God. Multiplicity always refers back to and is dependent upon some prior unity. As soon as you talk about the multiple, you are talking about there is something prior and more basic that is at the same time being referenced.
I mentioned this above, but the One is not a predicate of God. God is One is not analogous to saying jeans are blue. “God” and the “One” are redundant terms. Strictly speaking God is the One (or Good or Being, etc., etc.). This will never work with Three because three has to be present in an accidental way in some substrate. God is not a substrate to which predicates can be applied. I don’t know about Christians, but the idea of incommensurability, as you spoke about it, could never have a place in Islamic philosophy or theology with regards to the One.
You actually seem to come close to the idea of God as the One at the beginning of your second paragraph when you recognize that God cannot be instantiated, and that division and limitation of any form are not proper to God. But this should tell you that the One is not a characteristic of God, but, instead, the One (is) God. In the same way it is not like there are human beings and animal beings and tree beings and a divine being. God (is) Being. The One is not a particular kind of being, but Being.
You are of course right about the failure of language and knowledge with respect to God, often actively played out in theology through the dialectical pairing of affirmations and negations as a way of opening ourselves to that which is beyond knowing. And if Christians wanted to insist that somehow the One is beyond One, who would argue? The One is another word and so too falls, ultimately. But to say that God is three fails on a whole different level from that, it seems.
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Hypatia
Guest
This is interesting and a different approach from what the others have been saying. Where FF and GF had focused on Love, you seem to be interpreting the Trinity as a way of understanding what it means to say that the One manifests/reveals itself. Is that a fair statement?
A
abucs
Guest
i agree with InJesus. It is an explanation not a "mmmm lets see what we can invent … " doctrine.
The thing is, if God is to be manifested in this world so that we can see him - Jesus, burning bush - whatever, that automatically triggers questions about God’s limitations and boundaries. For example - who’s minding Heaven ? The light that bounces off God so we can see Him, what is it bouncing off ? Is God protons and electrons ?
You have the same questions with hearing God. What’s vibrating your eardrum ?
If we pour a bucket of water over the bush, do we kill God ?
Of course that is stupid, but we use our intelligence and try and understand why it is stupid and the mechanics behind it.
What the trinity does is allow us to see God in a more real way. We say that Jesus is the Word of God, or incarnation of God.
One problem is that we live in this universe and we want everything to conform to our ideas of time and space - even though when we sit down and think about it, if there is a God, we must be in a creation with a set of rules allowing us to exist. When we start to see time and space as a creation for a purpose we start to see God as - not being subject to those rules. While those rules our our reality, we cannot use our reality to define what is outside. If you like, our minds are structured to make sense of what is inside our reality and we struggle with anything that might be outside it.
For example, if you shine a light into a prism, the light may split into three on the other side. Is the light one or 3 ? It depends on what side of the prism you are on. Our created world is a prism in which we see three. When we go to the other side of the prism we will see one - the one and only God outside (and inside) of our space and time.
The thing is, if God is to be manifested in this world so that we can see him - Jesus, burning bush - whatever, that automatically triggers questions about God’s limitations and boundaries. For example - who’s minding Heaven ? The light that bounces off God so we can see Him, what is it bouncing off ? Is God protons and electrons ?
You have the same questions with hearing God. What’s vibrating your eardrum ?
If we pour a bucket of water over the bush, do we kill God ?
Of course that is stupid, but we use our intelligence and try and understand why it is stupid and the mechanics behind it.
What the trinity does is allow us to see God in a more real way. We say that Jesus is the Word of God, or incarnation of God.
One problem is that we live in this universe and we want everything to conform to our ideas of time and space - even though when we sit down and think about it, if there is a God, we must be in a creation with a set of rules allowing us to exist. When we start to see time and space as a creation for a purpose we start to see God as - not being subject to those rules. While those rules our our reality, we cannot use our reality to define what is outside. If you like, our minds are structured to make sense of what is inside our reality and we struggle with anything that might be outside it.
For example, if you shine a light into a prism, the light may split into three on the other side. Is the light one or 3 ? It depends on what side of the prism you are on. Our created world is a prism in which we see three. When we go to the other side of the prism we will see one - the one and only God outside (and inside) of our space and time.
I
inJESUS
Guest
A
Arkguy
Guest
The word “Trinity” is nowhere found in scripture and is not a biblical doctrine. God is One!!!
The One God was
Father in Creation
Son in Redemption
Holy Ghost in the Church
But God is One! Three manifestations of One God. Not 3 persons. 3 X 1 = 3.
The One God was
Father in Creation
Son in Redemption
Holy Ghost in the Church
But God is One! Three manifestations of One God. Not 3 persons. 3 X 1 = 3.
H
Hypatia
Guest
at which point, Jesus is the Son of what exactly?
I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that this is not what Christians mean by the Trinity.
I actually find inJesus’s suggestion about connecting Trinity to the idea of revelation to be fairly interesting. I have been chewing on it all day.
A
Arkguy
Guest
The One God who is a Spirit. The Father John 4:24
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:1
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
God loved us so much that He took on human flesh and dwelled with us.
1 Timothy 3:16 Says God was manifest in the flesh.
Jesus is God made man.
Col 2:9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the diety bodily.
One God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Jesus was totally God and totally Man. He was the God-Man.
He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:1
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
God loved us so much that He took on human flesh and dwelled with us.
1 Timothy 3:16 Says God was manifest in the flesh.
Jesus is God made man.
Col 2:9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the diety bodily.
One God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Jesus was totally God and totally Man. He was the God-Man.
He said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.
A
Arkguy
Guest
This is a Catholic Website and Catholics understanding of God is that God is a Trinity. We have a Muslim asking for explanation of this and I in a previous post put my non catholic views in. I apologise. Not for my understanding of the Godhead but that I did this. I love the Catholic Website and find it amazing at all the questions and answers and discussions there are here and that I am welcome here. I am really enjoying reading the different Forums and discussing some issues. Thanks.
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