How does the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence? mt11:11-15

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Jesus said to the crowds:
“Amen, I say to you,
among those born of women
there has been none greater than John the Baptist;
yet the least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
From the days of John the Baptist until now,
the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.
All the prophets and the law prophesied up to the time of John.
And if you are willing to accept it,
he is Elijah, the one who is to come.
Whoever has ears ought to hear.”

This verse has always puzzled me. I have been unable to penetrate it’s surface and dig to a deeper meaning. Some help please. a
 
Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary for verse 12 reads:

Ver. 12. Suffereth violence, &c. It is not to be obtained but by main force, by using violence upon ourselves, by mortification and penance, and resisting our perverse inclinations. (Challoner) — Certainly it is great violence for a man to look for a seat in heaven, and to obtain that by his virtue which was refused him by his nature. (St. Jerome in St. Thomas Aquinas) — The kingdom of heaven, &c. That is, the kingdom of heaven is to be obtained by mortification, penance, poverty, and those practices of austerity which John, both by word and example, pointed out. According to this interpretation, the kingdom of heaven means eternal life. Or the meaning may be, the kingdom of heaven is taken by the violent, because it is not now confined, as in the old law, to one people, but open to all, that whoever will may enter in and take possession of it. The kingdom of heaven, in this interpretation, is taken for the Church of Christ, for the gospel, and also for eternal life. (Menochius)

I interpret this to mean that we cannot be complacent about our salvation. Those who earnestly desire to be saved will do all they can to obtain eternal life. This means living according to the teachings of Christ and his Church. Also, availing ourselves of the graces of the Sacraments, prayer life of the Church, and doing good works and penance. 🙂
 
atassina said:
Jesus said to the crowds:
the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.
This verse has always puzzled me. I have been unable to penetrate it’s surface and dig to a deeper meaning. Some help please. a
Click to expand...
This commentary makes the most sense to me: biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/11-12.htm
— The spirits of men are so excited and animated by a desire after this kingdom, that it is, as it were, attacked like a besieged city, men of all sorts pressing to get into it, with a violence like that of men who are taking a place by storm. As if he had said, “Multitudes are flocking around me, to be instructed in the nature of my kingdom; and some, who were formerly of most licentious characters, and looked upon as utterly unfit to be subjects of the Messiah’s kingdom, are resolutely set on enjoying the blessings of it.” He that hath ears to hear, let him hear — A kind of proverbial expression, requiring the deepest attention to what is spoken.
 
Oh this is an easy answer! In our day and age there are two primary means: heresy and Liturgical abuse. If I was to list a third, I’d have to add the Priestly scandal of crimes against minors, etc. We all paid for that for a while and it hurt deeply. Some among us will be suffering that little violence against the Kingdom for the rest of their lives.

But I’m no expert on stuff except Focaccia and Green Godess juice for lunch. Yippie! I got my veggies!

Glenda
 
P.S. I ate my veggies and gave a fine answer. Do I get the cake? Chocolate is my fave.
 
I believe it simply refers to the spiritual warfare we must engage in if we are to inherit the Kingdom.
 
Do you sense a bit of vacuum where the Church needs to more firmly suggest and support specific interpretations and translations (and perhaps errors) when there are historically many conflicting variations? I thought Pope Benedict XVI tried to take a good but small step in this direction in ‘Jesus of Nazareth,’ but the answer is not, I don’t think, on p 59 (vol I).
But don’t you think responses quoting opinions of Church leaders and scholars are more helpful than off the cuff comments?
Yet obviously, Jesus said something apparently vague; was it probably a rhetorical device to encourage thinking and discussion?
What if He was anticipating atrocities like those in the Holy Land today?
 
atassina said:
the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence,

This verse has always puzzled me. I have been unable to penetrate it’s surface and dig to a deeper meaning. Some help please. a
Click to expand...
It all depends on your definition of the Kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom has three theological dimensions:
  1. **Christological - the Kingdom is Christ himself **(SeeLuke 11:20, 17:21; and Matthew 13:44-46).
  2. **Mystical - The kingdom is within each of us **This relates to 1), above, in that Christ is assumed as the Kingdom (Ephesians 3:16-17; Luke 17:21b)
  3. Ecclesiological - The kingdom is the Church. This relates to both 1 and 2, in that, 1) the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and 2) each of us as individuals are elements of the set that is the Church.
I lean towards the Mystical…I like the quote by Emeritus Pope Benedict, who said, “The kingdom of God is not to be found on any map … it is located in man’s inner being.”

So, if you accept the theological dimension of the Mystical, you could argue that what Christ is talking about is the trials and persecution that each of us, as his disciples, face from non-believers.

Peace and all good!
 
Keep in mind that Jesus himself is the Kingdom of Heaven.

***In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” **(Matthew 3:1-2)

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ (Matthew 10:7)*

At hand = right here, physically in front of you, able to be touched, not in the future but now. Matthew uses the word kingdom 54 times.

Gospel of the kingdom
Sons of the kingdom
Seek the kingdom
etc.

Jesus himself suffers violence - they try to stone him, drive him out of their towns, try to trap him in his speech and plot to kill him - and he is taken by force to the cross. Anyone who studies Acts of the Apostles comes to realize pretty quickly that what happens to Jesus happens to the Church and that we should expect no less.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Keep in mind that Jesus himself is the Kingdom of Heaven.

***In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” ***(Matthew 3:1-2)

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ (Matthew 10:7)

At hand = right here, physically in front of you, able to be touched. Look at all the references to Kingdom" in Matthew and it is clear that he himself is his Kingdom.

Jesus himself suffers violence and is taken by force.

-Tim-
Click to expand...
But you have to look beyond just Matthew to find the definition of the Kingdom.

Matthew, by the way, always refers to “the Kingdom of Heaven”, while the other evangelists refer to it as “the Kingdom of God.”,…they are synonyms, its just that Matthew who is a pious Jew, writing to Jews, will not use the name of God, so instead calls it the Kingdom of Heaven).

If we look, also, at Luke 17:21b (… For behold, the kingdom of God is among you."), and look at the Greek for “among”, we find it translates not just to “In your midst”, but, also to, “Inside you”.

This Mystical theological dimension does not contradict the opinion that Jesus is the Kingdom, but rather compliments it, by contending that he is not just with us, but in us.
 
Neofight said:
But you have to look beyond just Matthew to find the definition of the Kingdom.

Matthew, by the way, always refers to “the Kingdom of Heaven”, while the other evangelists refer to it as “the Kingdom of God.”,…they are synonyms, its just that Matthew who is a pious Jew, writing to Jews, will not use the name of God, so instead calls it the Kingdom of Heaven).

If we look, also, at Luke 17:21b (… For behold, the kingdom of God is among you."), and look at the Greek for “among”, we find it translates not just to “In your midst”, but, also to, “Inside you”.

This Mystical theological dimension does not contradict the opinion that Jesus is the Kingdom, but rather compliments it, by contending that he is not just with us, but in us.
Click to expand...
You are right. We must have been posting about the same time as I didn’t see yours when I started composing mine. Your explanation is very good.

My answer was specific to Matthew 11 which was the OP’s question specifically about the Kingdom of Heaven suffering violence. Matthew 11 is part of a discourse where Jesus speaks of the Son of Man, “all things have been delivered to me” and “My yoke is easy”, etc. The focus seems to be on himself.

-Tim-
 
Thanks, I found your post helpful. a
Della said:
Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary for verse 12 reads:

Ver. 12. Suffereth violence, &c. It is not to be obtained but by main force, by using violence upon ourselves, by mortification and penance, and resisting our perverse inclinations. (Challoner) — Certainly it is great violence for a man to look for a seat in heaven, and to obtain that by his virtue which was refused him by his nature. (St. Jerome in St. Thomas Aquinas) — The kingdom of heaven, &c. That is, the kingdom of heaven is to be obtained by mortification, penance, poverty, and those practices of austerity which John, both by word and example, pointed out. According to this interpretation, the kingdom of heaven means eternal life. Or the meaning may be, the kingdom of heaven is taken by the violent, because it is not now confined, as in the old law, to one people, but open to all, that whoever will may enter in and take possession of it. The kingdom of heaven, in this interpretation, is taken for the Church of Christ, for the gospel, and also for eternal life. (Menochius)

I interpret this to mean that we cannot be complacent about our salvation. Those who earnestly desire to be saved will do all they can to obtain eternal life. This means living according to the teachings of Christ and his Church. Also, availing ourselves of the graces of the Sacraments, prayer life of the Church, and doing good works and penance. 🙂
Click to expand...
 
tim,
i was looking forward to a post from you. you posted. my ripped scripture interpretation pants were sewn back together by your post.

a

ps- sew up your incense pants, wear them while gardening and realize that you too are also a steward of creation - heaven and earth become one.
TimothyH said:
Keep in mind that Jesus himself is the Kingdom of Heaven.

***In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” ***(Matthew 3:1-2)

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ (Matthew 10:7)

At hand = right here, physically in front of you, able to be touched, not in the future but now. Matthew uses the word kingdom 54 times.

Gospel of the kingdom
Sons of the kingdom
Seek the kingdom
etc.

Jesus himself suffers violence - they try to stone him, drive him out of their towns, try to trap him in his speech and plot to kill him - and he is taken by force to the cross. Anyone who studies Acts of the Apostles comes to realize pretty quickly that what happens to Jesus happens to the Church and that we should expect no less.

-Tim-
Click to expand...
 
Hello Neofight.
Neofight said:
It all depends on your definition of the Kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom has three theological dimensions:
  1. **Christological - the Kingdom is Christ himself **(SeeLuke 11:20, 17:21; and Matthew 13:44-46).
  2. **Mystical - The kingdom is within each of us **This relates to 1), above, in that Christ is assumed as the Kingdom (Ephesians 3:16-17; Luke 17:21b)
  3. Ecclesiological - The kingdom is the Church. This relates to both 1 and 2, in that, 1) the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and 2) each of us as individuals are elements of the set that is the Church.
I lean towards the Mystical…I like the quote by Emeritus Pope Benedict, who said, “The kingdom of God is not to be found on any map … it is located in man’s inner being.”

So, if you accept the theological dimension of the Mystical, you could argue that what Christ is talking about is the trials and persecution that each of us, as his disciples, face from non-believers.

Peace and all good!
Click to expand...
Nice answer. Thanks for sharing.

Glenda
 
Hello Atassina.
atassina said:
First French Roast or Italian Roast coffee then cake. Enjoy this nonfattening cyber cake.
Click to expand...
I’m on a diet and that is about all the cake I can have. :crying: I’m better when I’m well fed. I tend to be crabby when my tummy is grumbling.

Glenda
 
St. Jerome in St. Thomas Aquinas) — The kingdom of heaven, &c. That is, the kingdom of heaven is to be obtained by mortification. . .

glendab,
della posted a good reply and i think it applies to your dieting; see the first reply to my post.

i have had a difficult time with both abstaining and fasting. i have moved from this position:

“nobody will tell me what i can and cannot eat, even the Church”

to this position

“abstinence and fasting are spiritually good for me. the Church want my highest good.”

I now abstain from meat on fridays even thought i still find it difficult. Why do i abstain? easy: i now have a purpose, a goal: i want to grow in my relationship with Jesus.

Perhaps if you applied the same principle to your dieting you could be one of the violent who bear away the Kingdom.
 
glendab said:
Thanks Atassina for the encouragement. I appreciate that.

Glenda
Click to expand...
Since we’re already a bit off topic. What works best for dieting is not depriving oneself (that indeed is penance 😉). Rather, what is best is to eat 80% of the time what is good for you, and 20% of the time what is not–or those things you really like, such as cake, cookies, candy, etc. That way you don’t get discouraged. You lose weight gradually (which your body won’t interpret as starving) and you can still have some of the foods you crave–just not as much as you’d like. It’s a good discipline to follow that actually works for dieters–I follow it and I’ve lost 46 lbs. 🙂 How you divide the 80% and 20% is up to you.
 
Hello Della.
Della said:
Since we’re already a bit off topic. What works best for dieting is not depriving oneself (that indeed is penance 😉). Rather, what is best is to eat 80% of the time what is good for you, and 20% of the time what is not–or those things you really like, such as cake, cookies, candy, etc. That way you don’t get discouraged. You lose weight gradually (which your body won’t interpret as starving) and you can still have some of the foods you crave–just not as much as you’d like. It’s a good discipline to follow that actually works for dieters–I follow it and I’ve lost 46 lbs. 🙂 How you divide the 80% and 20% is up to you.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the supportive chat. 80/20 sounds like a good idea. Actually on a spiritual plane if this Scripture passage is read in a penitential way, it really is pertinent to dieting and fighting the sin of gluttony. If I want to do as one of the interpretations of this passage suggest and “violently” address my chubbiness, I’ll see not only my waistline decrease, but my sinful eating for comfort when my comfort should be found in God alone, will also decrease. Perhaps the thought of perfecting myself in abstinence and fasting and temperance by doing “violence” to my thoughts and actions, well, actually come to think on it, it really is relevant to the Scripture passage. If I really apply the virtue of Temperance to all aspects of my life, then I too may find myself taking the Kingdom by violence. But on a personal level, I have a hard time thinking of the word violence as a positive word, so that is a little bump in the road.

Enough from me. I’m intemperate in my use of words.

Glenda
 
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