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Vonsalza
Guest
Have fun! (16 char req.)
How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren?
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ajcstr
Guest
I just made the comment that i have never experienced that… not that it never happens. What geographic region are you from?
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TC3033
Guest
U.S., specifically Minnesota.
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steve-b
Guest
Vat II didn’t make any changes in doctrines or dogmas, regardless of what some think. It’s not okay to be separated from the Catholic Church. That hasn’t changed nor can it change. Scripture and Tradition say so.My answer will be a little controversial but I see Vatican II as trying to ever so gently right the course that was the Council of Trent. Now, you will never hear a Catholic say this in any official capacity. Ever. It simply cannot be so that they would acknowledge this - let’s leave that aside for now. I am a Vatican II Catholic on this issue. You are my separated brethren. However, CAF can get prickly on this one - traditionalist leaning Catholics will go hardcore Council of Trent from time to time. Interestingly, you can find not a few Protestant converts who hang with these folks, which to my mind anyway does not reflect too well on my separated brethren.Good news is there are many Protestants who view me as separated brethren too. I actually believe that most Christians in the West who seriously practice their faith have put this schismatic strife behind us. Except for the Internet and extremists.
From Lumen Gentium
(Emphasis mine)
- “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
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Wannano
Guest
The first sentence seems to indicate it applies to the Catholic faithful?FollowChrist34:
Vat II didn’t make any changes in doctrines or dogmas, regardless of what some think. It’s not okay to be separated from the Catholic Church. That hasn’t changed nor can it change. Scripture and Tradition say so.My answer will be a little controversial but I see Vatican II as trying to ever so gently right the course that was the Council of Trent. Now, you will never hear a Catholic say this in any official capacity. Ever. It simply cannot be so that they would acknowledge this - let’s leave that aside for now. I am a Vatican II Catholic on this issue. You are my separated brethren. However, CAF can get prickly on this one - traditionalist leaning Catholics will go hardcore Council of Trent from time to time. Interestingly, you can find not a few Protestant converts who hang with these folks, which to my mind anyway does not reflect too well on my separated brethren.
From Lumen Gentium
(Emphasis mine)
- “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
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steve-b
Guest
it’s not just for Catholics. Did you miss the partsteve-b:
The first sentence seems to indicate it applies to the Catholic faithful?FollowChrist34:
Vat II didn’t make any changes in doctrines or dogmas, regardless of what some think. It’s not okay to be separated from the Catholic Church. That hasn’t changed nor can it change. Scripture and Tradition say so.My answer will be a little controversial but I see Vatican II as trying to ever so gently right the course that was the Council of Trent. Now, you will never hear a Catholic say this in any official capacity. Ever. It simply cannot be so that they would acknowledge this - let’s leave that aside for now. I am a Vatican II Catholic on this issue. You are my separated brethren. However, CAF can get prickly on this one - traditionalist leaning Catholics will go hardcore Council of Trent from time to time. Interestingly, you can find not a few Protestant converts who hang with these folks, which to my mind anyway does not reflect too well on my separated brethren.
From Lumen Gentium
(Emphasis mine)
- “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
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Wannano
Guest
The whole article is addressed to the Catholic faithful within quotation marks.Wannano:
it’s not just for Catholics. Did you miss the partsteve-b:
The first sentence seems to indicate it applies to the Catholic faithful?FollowChrist34:
Vat II didn’t make any changes in doctrines or dogmas, regardless of what some think. It’s not okay to be separated from the Catholic Church. That hasn’t changed nor can it change. Scripture and Tradition say so.My answer will be a little controversial but I see Vatican II as trying to ever so gently right the course that was the Council of Trent. Now, you will never hear a Catholic say this in any official capacity. Ever. It simply cannot be so that they would acknowledge this - let’s leave that aside for now. I am a Vatican II Catholic on this issue. You are my separated brethren. However, CAF can get prickly on this one - traditionalist leaning Catholics will go hardcore Council of Trent from time to time. Interestingly, you can find not a few Protestant converts who hang with these folks, which to my mind anyway does not reflect too well on my separated brethren.
From Lumen Gentium
(Emphasis mine)
- “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
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steve-b
Guest
Good grief!!!steve-b:
The whole article is addressed to the Catholic faithful within quotation marks.Wannano:
it’s not just for Catholics. Did you miss the partsteve-b:
The first sentence seems to indicate it applies to the Catholic faithful?FollowChrist34:
Vat II didn’t make any changes in doctrines or dogmas, regardless of what some think. It’s not okay to be separated from the Catholic Church. That hasn’t changed nor can it change. Scripture and Tradition say so.My answer will be a little controversial but I see Vatican II as trying to ever so gently right the course that was the Council of Trent. Now, you will never hear a Catholic say this in any official capacity. Ever. It simply cannot be so that they would acknowledge this - let’s leave that aside for now. I am a Vatican II Catholic on this issue. You are my separated brethren. However, CAF can get prickly on this one - traditionalist leaning Catholics will go hardcore Council of Trent from time to time. Interestingly, you can find not a few Protestant converts who hang with these folks, which to my mind anyway does not reflect too well on my separated brethren.
From Lumen Gentium
(Emphasis mine)
- “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
What part of “whosoever” means only Catholics?
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved."
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Wannano
Guest
How do you understand article #15?Wannano:
Good grief!!!steve-b:
The whole article is addressed to the Catholic faithful within quotation marks.Wannano:
it’s not just for Catholics. Did you miss the partsteve-b:
The first sentence seems to indicate it applies to the Catholic faithful?FollowChrist34:
Vat II didn’t make any changes in doctrines or dogmas, regardless of what some think. It’s not okay to be separated from the Catholic Church. That hasn’t changed nor can it change. Scripture and Tradition say so.My answer will be a little controversial but I see Vatican II as trying to ever so gently right the course that was the Council of Trent. Now, you will never hear a Catholic say this in any official capacity. Ever. It simply cannot be so that they would acknowledge this - let’s leave that aside for now. I am a Vatican II Catholic on this issue. You are my separated brethren. However, CAF can get prickly on this one - traditionalist leaning Catholics will go hardcore Council of Trent from time to time. Interestingly, you can find not a few Protestant converts who hang with these folks, which to my mind anyway does not reflect too well on my separated brethren.
From Lumen Gentium
(Emphasis mine)
- “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
What part of “whosoever” means only Catholics?
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved."
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steve-b
Guest
It doesn’t say they are members of the Catholic Church. It doesn’t say they are united with the one True Church.
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Wannano
Guest
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Good point you raised there. John 3:16 agrees with you. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.”steve-b:
Good grief!!!Wannano:
it’s not just for Catholics. Did you miss the partsteve-b:
The first sentence seems to indicate it applies to the Catholic faithful?FollowChrist34:
Vat II didn’t make any changes in doctrines or dogmas, regardless of what some think. It’s not okay to be separated from the Catholic Church. That hasn’t changed nor can it change. Scripture and Tradition say so.My answer will be a little controversial but I see Vatican II as trying to ever so gently right the course that was the Council of Trent. Now, you will never hear a Catholic say this in any official capacity. Ever. It simply cannot be so that they would acknowledge this - let’s leave that aside for now. I am a Vatican II Catholic on this issue. You are my separated brethren. However, CAF can get prickly on this one - traditionalist leaning Catholics will go hardcore Council of Trent from time to time. Interestingly, you can find not a few Protestant converts who hang with these folks, which to my mind anyway does not reflect too well on my separated brethren.
From Lumen Gentium
(Emphasis mine)
- “This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
What part of “whosoever” means only Catholics?
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Wannano
Guest
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Exactly. But is it not saying they are saved in their Church?**
Exactly. But is it not saying they are saved in their Church?**
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Vonsalza
Guest
That’s a wonderful piece of scripture.
There’s also other wonderful pieces of scripture.
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” (Mt 16:18-19)
"Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (Jn 20:23)
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you.” (Heb 13:17)
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Wannano
Guest
Amen. John 11 :35 “Jesus wept.” Tells us a lot about Jesus.Wannano:
That’s a wonderful piece of scripture.
There’s also other wonderful pieces of scripture.
“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” (Mt 16:18-19)
"Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (Jn 20:23)
“Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls and will give an account for their work. Let them do this with joy and not with complaints, for this would be no advantage for you.” (Heb 13:17)
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Vonsalza
Guest
Verily. All of scripture or none of it.
And best interpreted through the Church that compiled and canonized it after the Church was already three-and-a-half centuries old (which is hard to explain for sola- or prima- scriptura views).
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Wannano
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Even if Lumen Gentia and other articles like AL could be clearly interpreted in ordinary laguage by the Church it would be helpful.Wannano:
Verily. All of scripture or none of it.
And best interpreted through the Church that compiled and canonized it after the Church was already three-and-a-half centuries old (which is hard to explain for sola- or prima- scriptura views).
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Wannano
Guest
Gentium. Spelling correvtion.Vonsalza:
Even if Lumen Gentia and other articles like AL could be clearly interpreted in ordinary laguage by the Church it would be helpful.Wannano:
Verily. All of scripture or none of it.
And best interpreted through the Church that compiled and canonized it after the Church was already three-and-a-half centuries old (which is hard to explain for sola- or prima- scriptura views).
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steve-b
Guest
**Wannano:
It doesn’t say they are members of the Catholic Church. It doesn’t say they are united with the one True Church.Wannano:
NO.
BTW why/how would you come to that conclusion reading from any of the Vat II documents?
If that was true why be Catholic?
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Vonsalza
Guest
I understand the sentiment.
But theological texts are no different from sophisticated, jargon filled texts in any other field:
They do require a particular education to fully grasp them. The “general public” cannot be reasonably assumed to have an education sufficient to understand the dueling concepts encountered in the Chalcedonian Schism, for example.
No wonder Christ established a church centuries before it established a new testament…
But theological texts are no different from sophisticated, jargon filled texts in any other field:
They do require a particular education to fully grasp them. The “general public” cannot be reasonably assumed to have an education sufficient to understand the dueling concepts encountered in the Chalcedonian Schism, for example.
No wonder Christ established a church centuries before it established a new testament…
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steve-b
Guest
it’s not just for Catholics. Did you miss the part
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”
What part of “whosoever” means only Catholics?
And If one really believes in Him they’ll do as HE says and what His Church says…
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