How does this God make you feel?

[StrawberryJam]

All decent points. You will never find objective proof of God. It doesn’t really exist in my opinion. I am fairly certain that God exists because of the events of my life. This is completely subjective though and I could never convince anyone else that God exists through my own experiences and emotions. I think that a lot of believers have a similar story.

In terms of the significance of the Amelkites…I don’t think there really is any. I don’t think it ever happened, just like adam and even never existed and there was never a world wide flood. The archeological evidence for the Israelites conquering nations is completely lacking. These are just stories that were written by the Israelites hundreds of years after they “happened.” No reason to get caught up on things like this.

In the words of Richard Dawkins: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

It is harsh and one sided, but I can definitely see where he is coming from. At least Jesus was a nice guy.

You do have to explain to me how you understand the prophecy of Jesus coming if you discount the hebrew scriptures. I mean, you can not have it both ways.
Or can you?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Yes. I would consider it a morally just thing today. If God was to strike me dead right now for whatever I did, He would be just in His sentence and blameless when He judges. Even beyond that. Death would be too good.
What do I deserve? Nothing but eternal torments. Nothing more.
People keep telling me I am wrong about that, but I am sure I am not. I was a vile God-hating criminal. I broke every law God has ever given. I don’t deserve anything but hell. I sinned against an infinitely holy God. I sinned against Him and Him only. I insulted the most glorious being in the entire universe and I didn’t do it just once. I did it over and over again. I didn’t do anything but sinning! I didn’t do anything else! I deserve hell and I deserve only that. If God would execute perfect justice there would be no moderation, no mercy. I would have to drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger.
But he saved me! I don’t have anything apart from Him! He saved me! He bought me with His blood. He paid the price and He saved me!
All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
What else can there be said? He saved me! He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me! All hail the power of Jesus’ Name! Let angels prostrate fall! Bring forth the royal diadem, and crown Him Lord of all!
Everything I have I owe to Him, so why should I hold anything back? He saved me and that is more than I could ever have expected or earned.
I give everything. Everything to God I freely give.

(Part of the answer is quoted from my personal blog. I also incorporated the lyrics of one of my favorite hymns.)

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

Janet,

Do you believe you did things with knowledge they were wrong, and did them anyway?

 

[StrawberryJam]

There wasn’t a concept of heaven and hell in the story of the Amalekites. The OT doesn’t say much about an after life at all.

This begs the question. In your opinion do the hebrew scriptures give us any indication of a Jesus coming? Careful how you answer.

 

[StrawberryJam]

You are consistently ignoring the fact that we rejected God’s gift of life by seeking to separate ourselves from our Creator. You are also ignoring the afterlife. If there were innocent, just Amalekites, then they are in heaven. Why is it God’s fault that there wasn’t a better method? It was our fault for being stubborn and evil.

Don’t think that these and other verses haven’t presented me with difficulty. I’ve read every line of the Old Testament up to the second book of Samuel. How much have you read?

I am very open-minded. Are you?

“We” are not them, and can’t be held accountable for their slaughter.
I don’t ignore an afterlife, I don’t find any reason to live my life expecting a blissfull eternity. Therefore, each second counts for me.
Read the bible more. It will help you understand the God you love.

 

[hellopeople]

You do have to explain to me how you understand the prophecy of Jesus coming if you discount the hebrew scriptures. I mean, you can not have it both ways.
Or can you?

I’m not sure if Jesus was really talked about in the OT. Jews don’t seem to think so. The Jews at the time of Jesus were under the impression that the Messiah was going to take over the evil empire. Obviously the prophecy wasn’t very clear. I do think that the OT has a lot of wisdom and worthwhile passages, I just don’t think it is historically accurate nor does it show God in a correct light.

 

[hellopeople]

This begs the question. In your opinion do the hebrew scriptures give us any indication of a Jesus coming? Careful how you answer.

I am going to have say no.

 

[crazzeto]

I am going to have say no.

That’s the wrong answer, and Christianity would never have grown past a small community let alone grown to the major world religion it is if the OT never gave us any idea of how and when the Massiah would come. Take for instance, Michas 5

drbo.org/chapter/38005.htm

2 AND THOU, BETHLEHEM Ephrata, art a little one among the thousands of Juda: out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. 3 Therefore will he give them up even till the time wherein she that travaileth shall bring forth: and the remnant of his brethren shall be converted to the children of Israel.

That’s just one example. That’s the trouble with trying to take this “the Old Testament is a bunch of made up fairy tales that has no bareing on the New” attitude. That’s not true, the Old Testament is the New Testament reveled, and the New Testament is the Old fulfilled.

 

[crazzeto]

I discussed your points when your attitude was distasteful, but I guess that’s not the point, is it? Consider my ego lowered. Now about those inquiries…

Thoughtfully,
Think About It

When was my attitude ever distasteful? If that came across I’m certainly sorry, but I certainly never meant any antimosity towards you.

 

[hellopeople]

That’s the wrong answer, and Christianity would never have grown past a small community let alone grown to the major world religion it is if the OT never gave us any idea of how and when the Massiah would come. Take for instance, Michas 5

drbo.org/chapter/38005.htm

That’s just one example. That’s the trouble with trying to take this “the Old Testament is a bunch of made up fairy tales that has no bareing on the New” attitude. That’s not true, the Old Testament is the New Testament reveled, and the New Testament is the Old fulfilled.

I never said that the OT had no bearing on the NT. Jesus quotes the OT often. I don’t doubt that there is much wisdom to be found in the OT, but the stories are not historically accurate. Also, that quote is pretty vague and doesn’t seem to suggest Jesus at all.

 

[Think_About_It]

When was my attitude ever distasteful? If that came across I’m certainly sorry, but I certainly never meant any antimosity towards you.

“You’re doing a bad job of it… you lacked the biblical and historical knowledge to fully understand the question you were asking”

These aren’t facts, these are assessments – inaccurate and uncalled for. Forgive me for reacting. In any event, I’m still interested to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut on my final question and clarification on the others, if we can put pettiness behind us.

 

[crazzeto]

“You’re doing a bad job of it… you lacked the biblical and historical knowledge to fully understand the question you were asking”

These aren’t facts, these are assessments – inaccurate and uncalled for. Forgive me for reacting. In any event, I’m still interested to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut on my final question and clarification on the others, if we can put pettiness behind us.

I already gave you an answer, I feel very very fortunate to have the God we have. All knowing, all powerful, slow to anger, quick to forgive.

 

[Think_About_It]

I already gave you an answer, I feel very very fortunate to have the God we have. All knowing, all powerful, slow to anger, quick to forgive.

Other question - here:

“Just as an off-shoot: you Christians must find it completely understandable (given the beliefs they hold about their Deity) why some Muslim extremists blow themselves up in market places (because God is allegedly a fan of that behaviour). Would you say that’s true? If God ordered suicide bombings, for his glory, in our culture’s holy book and not theirs, you’d say it was good and just, and that this is still obviously the creator of everything that ever was or is?”

 

[Janet1983]

Janet,

Do you believe you did things with knowledge they were wrong, and did them anyway?

Yes.

 

[bleh_confused]

My apologies to everyone for the late and light replies – I’ve been very busy with school. Nevertheless, I’ve replied to what I think are the salient points of contention in at least some small way.

This really sums up my concern.
There is no context with which to save this passage. It’s alright to slaughter the innocent because it’s God doing the slaughtering. God was barbaric in barbaric times, now God is our personal friend (O’ what a friend we have in Jesus, indeed). God evolves with us. When we needed God to be a tyrant, He was. When we need him to be our friend, He is. Just because long and tiresome rationales exist, doesn’t mean they are worthy of reception. Think about it, folks. Everything you know about God can be easily regarded as myth. That’s why God doesn’t do anything or say anything to any of us that can be sensed in any way; this should be a clue.

This is a last-resort argument. God was protecting the lineage of Jesus, and in turn, Jesus’ message. When one believes that this is the ultimate destiny of humanity – to be redeemed by this coming messiah – one must also believe that God could not have devised a better method than the death of countless hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom were either ignorant of anything else, or were innocent. If we have justice about us (which is central to the Christian claim – that a universal sense of justice has been imputed to us via the Almighty), then why does God’s justice not appeal to our reason? If God slaughters babies for the greater good – as a means to an end – how are we to know that we ought not to do the same, unless it seems just terribly, terribly, wrong; so wrong, in fact, that it appears clearly fictitious.

God’s most brilliant plan is murder, nepotism, vicarious redemption, and elusively. “OH BUT WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE WHAT’S BEST!?” If God gave us reason, he surely must have confounded it with ideas of justice that we surely wouldn’t adopt as moral keepsakes into our own society. C’mon, look at it. Just look at it from the angle of scepticism, if only for a moment, and you might see it. I’m not asking you change your beliefs, I’m asking you look at it from an angle that you’ve hitherto, not allowed yourself.

Then why comprehend him at all? I appreciate your further attempts, though I’m not convinced you couldn’t say the same things about any God, real or imaginary, for acts that we would consider horrific and barbaric if any man carried them out of his own volition.

Borne out of God comes evil men, stupid and afraid, and God kills them instead of teaching them. This is the God you want us to believe and love. Justice aside, this is the God we must worship somehow. Does any believer understand, at least, why this is difficult, if not impossible, for an increasing many people?

im sorry you feel this way…and yes i see how it can be difficult.

however i must point out to you God doesn’t evolve with us, we simply see Him in different perspectives as time goes on; God doesn’t evolve, we do.

this is a very tough question, and i see your concern.

God is love though, and perhaps i should point out to you a little fact about invincible ignorance. As someone stated before, when these people are born they are innocent, but immediately corrupted, leaving no chance (we can assume) for them to make a truly free decision about what they’re doing. because they didn’t choose to go away from God, if they were killed they assumably would be corrected in their errs, but not eternally punished. death is not the worst thing that can happen to someone, which you seem to be assuming, so God may indeed have chosen to kill them, but that doesn’t mean He didn’t love them.
Perhaps He was trying to get the best of both worlds, Israel and many others would have been corrupted by their ways had they stayed active. By God killing them, the Israelites remained free of corruption and those killed died in an ignorant state, so God would not punish them eternally.

He loves everyone, He will not abandon a single soul, and His descions are perfect always. This, my friend, is the God who you seem to be so disgusted with

 

[bleh_confused]

Other question - here:

“Just as an off-shoot: you Christians must find it completely understandable (given the beliefs they hold about their Deity) why some Muslim extremists blow themselves up in market places (because God is allegedly a fan of that behaviour). Would you say that’s true? If God ordered suicide bombings, for his glory, in our culture’s holy book and not theirs, you’d say it was good and just, and that this is still obviously the creator of everything that ever was or is?”

yes, its understandable that we would believe such a thing if it were in the Bible. however, may i point out that there are Christian extremists who believe this behavior is Ok, just as the Muslims. actually 99.9% of Muslim people, like Christians, are perfectly respectable and wouldn’t engage in such behavior, however your always going to have a few people blinded by their emotions. the Quran doesn’t say kill every none Muslim, it stresses their conversion, and i can’t quite remember what the requirments have to be for someone to be justly killed.

and may i say God would never command such a thing, because it’s not just. like i said in my above post those people are in a state of invincible ignorance.
God doesn’t set arbitrary rules, He sets the BEST rules because He knows and wants what is best, and He sets these rules because it would lead, if followed correctly, to the state of nature, which is practically Heaven on earth.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’m not sure if Jesus was really talked about in the OT. Jews don’t seem to think so. The Jews at the time of Jesus were under the impression that the Messiah was going to take over the evil empire. Obviously the prophecy wasn’t very clear. I do think that the OT has a lot of wisdom and worthwhile passages, I just don’t think it is historically accurate nor does it show God in a correct light.

Without the prophecy of his coming, he would then be on the very same footing as Buhhda, and others who also had no prior prophecy of their coming.

How does your God make you feel now?

You can’t as a christian just ignore the Jehovah in the OT. He is your case for your Jesus.
No Jehovah, No Jesus.

 

[hellopeople]

Without the prophecy of his coming, he would then be on the very same footing as Buhhda, and others who also had no prior prophecy of their coming.

How does your God make you feel now?

You can’t as a christian just ignore the Jehovah in the OT. He is your case for your Jesus.
No Jehovah, No Jesus.

This just makes me laugh. You mention the Buddha as though I do not hold him in high regard. You have not proved anything. Why must there be a prophecy of Jesus coming?

Edit: lol at your “careful how you answer.”

 

[grace_singh]

StrawberryJam:

This begs the question. In your opinion do the hebrew scriptures give us any indication of a Jesus coming? Careful how you answer.

the Hebrew Scriptures even prophecy His Name :

Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. (Zechariah 6:11-13)

“Branch” is a uniquely Messianic term. many argue this passage refers only to Joshua the son of the then-current high priest, but remember Messiah would be born of the tribe of Judah, not Levi. this verse actually prophesies the Name of Messiah : Joshua. or Yoshua. or, in the Aramaic of Christ, Yeshua, which is indeed Jesus’ Aramaic Name.

 

[grace_singh]

Blood in the Old, Peace in the New?

this is something which confuses a lot of people. why is Jesus teaching love and forgiveness, while in the OT God kills and orders killing?

what one has to understand is that in the OT God does not kill randomly. He uses His people to carry out His will against sinful, evil, cruel, and wicked nations. (Deuteronomy 9:4-5) the Lord reserves the right to take life, and as God’s scope and justice is unlimited and perfect, and as He has made us and know us better than we know ourselves, His reserving this right makes sense. He takes life, gives life, punishnes sin, and also punishes His own people for wantonly taking life.

God’s standards do not change in the NT, either. Jesus commands peace and forgiveness and meekness to His followers, yet God Himself still reserves the right to take lives and punish evil. (Acts 5:1-10, Acts 12:20-23)

the OT laws were so harsh exactly because the Hebrew people, whom God had just lead miraculously out of slavery, agreed to follow God’s laws and commands. every one of them had seen God’s miracles in front of their eyes, and were pledging to God to keep His ways, and to honor Him. God knew that they were a people prone to weakness and selfishness, and He kept His laws strict to discipline and guide His people.(Deuteronomy 27)

and through this people God chose to send His Son, the Messiah. the promised King who would bring a new standard of peace and grace to humanity, and be the very image and uniqueness of God come down to visit and save humanity, the Lord Jesus.

 

[hellopeople]

the Hebrew Scriptures even prophecy His Name :

Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. (Zechariah 6:11-13)

“Branch” is a uniquely Messianic term. many argue this passage refers only to Joshua the son of the then-current high priest, but remember Messiah would be born of the tribe of Judah, not Levi. this verse actually prophesies the Name of Messiah : Joshua. or Yoshua. or, in the Aramaic of Christ, Yeshua, which is indeed Jesus’ Aramaic Name.

Would you honestly read this passage and think “this must be about Jesus?” Did Jesus wear crowns of silver and gold? Does that sound like something Jesus would do? Is he a high priest…or did he argue with the high priests? Did he build a temple…no. Did he ever sit upon his throne? He was never even described as a priest. I have absolutely no idea how anyone could get Jesus from this quote.