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Pope_Noah_I
Guest
Is there a difference?
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edward_george
Guest
What do you mean by “Liturgical archaeologism?” Please define your terms, sir.
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kleary
Guest
Yes…
Traditionalism seeks restoration of traditional practices associated with the correct showing of Catholic Doctrine in the Liturgy.
The other way, that is associated with this post was condemned by Pope Pius XII, who condemned the Modern Liturgical Movement in his day for seeking to change the altar to its original form of table and remove black from the liturgical colors.
I found more here:
geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/uno1.html
Ken
Traditionalism seeks restoration of traditional practices associated with the correct showing of Catholic Doctrine in the Liturgy.
The other way, that is associated with this post was condemned by Pope Pius XII, who condemned the Modern Liturgical Movement in his day for seeking to change the altar to its original form of table and remove black from the liturgical colors.
I found more here:
geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/uno1.html
Ken
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brotherhrolf
Guest
I believe the poster was simply trying to be “cute”. What he fails to recognize is that there are significant numbers of us who grew up in the pre- V II church and that we are not dead yet. As a traditional Catholic, those memories of HMC have not passed.
As an archaeologist - sure, I could apply the same techniques of scientific excavation to a suburban ranch house from the 50’s. But what would be the purpose? Forensics? More than likely.
So what I have to say to you Noah is that what you term “liturgical archaeolgy” is a true misnomer. Sorry, my friend, but I still have my St. Joseph Missal given to me when I was confirmed in 1963. I was an altar boy during those years and can still recall from memory the appropriate Latin responses and the movements for all of the different types of Masses pre-V II including the elusive Requiem Mass which few mention with its black vestments.
You may want to cast things in light of it being “archaeology” but it is a gross overstatement when there are so many of us who grew up with it and remember. We’re not dead yet so your argument falls on sterile ground.
As an archaeologist - sure, I could apply the same techniques of scientific excavation to a suburban ranch house from the 50’s. But what would be the purpose? Forensics? More than likely.
So what I have to say to you Noah is that what you term “liturgical archaeolgy” is a true misnomer. Sorry, my friend, but I still have my St. Joseph Missal given to me when I was confirmed in 1963. I was an altar boy during those years and can still recall from memory the appropriate Latin responses and the movements for all of the different types of Masses pre-V II including the elusive Requiem Mass which few mention with its black vestments.
You may want to cast things in light of it being “archaeology” but it is a gross overstatement when there are so many of us who grew up with it and remember. We’re not dead yet so your argument falls on sterile ground.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Well, you can love the TLM and still believe that all religions are the same…right?
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brotherhrolf
Guest
You might have a completely different view of that had you a) been raised and catechiszed prior to V II and b) your father and most of his family were Protestant. What does that have to do with the claim of liturgical archaeology?
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GandalfTheWhite
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What I understand under the term liturgical archaeologism is an exceptional interest in the liturgical practices of the old days. I’ve never heard it before, but I guess it might be used as a slight insult. Anyways, what I was trying to say is that traditionalism means more than just going to the TLM. You can go to TLM and belief that all religions are the same. That won’t make a traditionalist. By that I was trying to answer what is the difference between traditionalism and liturgical archaeologism…
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Pope_Noah_I
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I am insulted. I love the Traditional Liturgy and no one would be happier than I if we reverted to the way things were before 1962. You’re comment was rude and I am offended by it.
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palmas85
Guest
Well since you never defined what you meant, what exactly are we supposed to think? You make up an ambiguous term that could be taken in several different ways and then disappear for a while. Quite often those particular tactics are used to start controversy which is exactly what it looks like you were trying to do.
If that is what you were trying it was a very clumsy attempt indeed.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Sorry, by training I am an archaeologist. I did not mean to offend. I was merely pointing out that liturgical archaeolgy implies that the TLM is ancient history when it is anything but. That there ARE significant numbers of us who grew up with the TLM and have been waiting all of these years ,
Our state archives consider any document older than fifty years to be an historic document. My 1962 St. Joseph’s missal does not fit that definition. I can remember visiting the historic farmstead of Joseph Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah and having the docent patiently explain all the cast iron cookware. To which I and my two companions pointed out - said cast iron cookware is still in use in the Deep South and that my MILs kitchen looked remarkably like what the docent was calling “historic”.
As I pointed out earlier, the only kind of liturgical archaeology which makes any kind of sense in the context in which you framed your question is forensic. Which makes not a bit of sense.
My response was neither rude nor offensive. As has been pointed out, there was no context in which to frame your remarks. Liturgical archaeology implies resurrecting the past. As long as HMC has a living memory of the TLM, it cannot be archaeology.
I’m not dead yet! I’m feeling better!
Our state archives consider any document older than fifty years to be an historic document. My 1962 St. Joseph’s missal does not fit that definition. I can remember visiting the historic farmstead of Joseph Smith in Salt Lake City, Utah and having the docent patiently explain all the cast iron cookware. To which I and my two companions pointed out - said cast iron cookware is still in use in the Deep South and that my MILs kitchen looked remarkably like what the docent was calling “historic”.
As I pointed out earlier, the only kind of liturgical archaeology which makes any kind of sense in the context in which you framed your question is forensic. Which makes not a bit of sense.
My response was neither rude nor offensive. As has been pointed out, there was no context in which to frame your remarks. Liturgical archaeology implies resurrecting the past. As long as HMC has a living memory of the TLM, it cannot be archaeology.
I’m not dead yet! I’m feeling better!
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Windmill
Guest
Pope Noah,
This is simplistic analogy, but it may help:
An acorn falls from a tree 2,000 years ago. It sprouts and continues to grow, imperceptibly, for 1900 years. Then, one day, a lumberjack comes and cuts it down and drags it off, and plants a new starter tree in the same spot.
The Traditionalist laments the loss of the gigantic, age-old tree that stood in that spot only moments before.
The Liturgical archaeologist laments the fact that the lumberjack didn’t plant an acorn.
However, both are disappointed.
This is simplistic analogy, but it may help:
An acorn falls from a tree 2,000 years ago. It sprouts and continues to grow, imperceptibly, for 1900 years. Then, one day, a lumberjack comes and cuts it down and drags it off, and plants a new starter tree in the same spot.
The Traditionalist laments the loss of the gigantic, age-old tree that stood in that spot only moments before.
The Liturgical archaeologist laments the fact that the lumberjack didn’t plant an acorn.
However, both are disappointed.
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IrishAm
Guest
For purposes of debate and discussion, the terms Traditionalism, Liturgical Archaeologism, and Liturgical Anachronism all have their place if the meanings are generally understood.
If not, any of them can be used to insult someone. The words are neutral; the intentions of the users are not always . . .
If not, any of them can be used to insult someone. The words are neutral; the intentions of the users are not always . . .
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Sorry, I just don’t feel it that way. I grew up with the TLM…sang in a choir; was an altar boy until 1969. The term liturgical archaeology makes me something out of time which is a liturgical anachronism. Now since I was Lord Brother Hrolf, Companion of the Order of the Dragon’s Eye in the Society for Creative Anachronism, quondam squire to Count Viscount Sir Francois Lord Duvant, the terms archaeology and anachronism have concrete meaning to me. Neither of which are apropos to this situation.
One, I grew up with the TLM. Two, the TLM cannot be an anchronsim since it is not out of time. There are far too many of us alive who grew up with the TLM as the normative Mass. I reject the terms liturgical archaeology or liturtigical anachronism. Hate to dissapoint you young folks but here I stand at 56 (please God, I’m not dead yet) and I join the rest of my brothers and sisters who are of an age with me and submitted all these years to HMC. Our time has come. It’s not going to haqppen overnight but neither is it archaeology or an anachronism.
The plant got cut off from the root in 1970 but it doesn’t mean that the plant can’t come back from the root.
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IrishAm
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I didn’t mean to infer the terms meant the same thing. Quite the contrary . . .
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brotherhrolf
Guest
The sad thing is that the “thing” is anything but.
We work with the terms as they are issued to us.
We work with the terms as they are issued to us.
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Aramis
Guest
Hard Line Traditionalism seems to bee seeking to avoid any acknowlegement that the church has the right to change the liturgy. It is both wrong and disobedient…
Soft-line Traditionalism seeks to kep the old and the new both, out of love for t
he old.
Liturgical Archaeology is examining the materials of the past liturgies for various reasons; if the reason is merely to resurrect them, it is the same kind of disobedience as hard-line traditionalism. If it is instead to see where and why the Liturgies have changed, it is a good thing.
Liturgical Archaeologism is basing the new off the older than just prior, rather than evolving from the not so old. Pious may have condemned it (but not infallibly, apparently), but it is a part and parcel of both the continued use of the Eastern Rite Divine Liturgies (essentially the only changes being translational and what is spoken alout versus silently for the last 1000 years), and in the formation of the Novus Ordo Missale Romanum, and the Roman Missal which incorporates it.
Based upon standard meanings for the terms.
Soft-line Traditionalism seeks to kep the old and the new both, out of love for t
he old.
Liturgical Archaeology is examining the materials of the past liturgies for various reasons; if the reason is merely to resurrect them, it is the same kind of disobedience as hard-line traditionalism. If it is instead to see where and why the Liturgies have changed, it is a good thing.
Liturgical Archaeologism is basing the new off the older than just prior, rather than evolving from the not so old. Pious may have condemned it (but not infallibly, apparently), but it is a part and parcel of both the continued use of the Eastern Rite Divine Liturgies (essentially the only changes being translational and what is spoken alout versus silently for the last 1000 years), and in the formation of the Novus Ordo Missale Romanum, and the Roman Missal which incorporates it.
Based upon standard meanings for the terms.
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alih
Guest
appearing in an article in one of my “adoremus bulletins” last year was an article which quoted pope benedict xvi as stating that one thing vat ii did was to “redefine the meaning of the liturgy.” prior to that the term “the mass and the liturgy” were used. in another words, the mass of an in of itself was "not"considered part of the liturgy of the church. it is, was and continues to be “the sacrifical rite” of the catholic church (latin rite). missing benediction and or vespers never was considered the same as missing mass. have a good year. (alih)
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brotherhrolf
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I’m sorry. We in the pews in 1966 were not consulted such as would be the case today. The change to the NO was violent and relentless.
I flat-out reject the term liturgical archaeology. There are far too many of us alive today who remember the Mass pre 1970 and the hybrid Mass which existed from 1966 to 1969, I will not be cheapened or demeaned by the term “liturgical archaeology”. Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam means something to me.
I am not a radical traditionalist. But I am a traditionalist. I remember what we have lost. The recessional hymn tonight from the National Cathedral at the anti-abortion Mass was none other than “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”…Years and years and years since I have heard that.
However convinient that you think that my genearation openly embraced the dreck that came in the years after 1970, guess again. We have maintained our vigil. We have prayed year after year after year that the Mass we knew as kids would be restored.
Gratias tibi Domino! It’s back.
I flat-out reject the term liturgical archaeology. There are far too many of us alive today who remember the Mass pre 1970 and the hybrid Mass which existed from 1966 to 1969, I will not be cheapened or demeaned by the term “liturgical archaeology”. Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam means something to me.
I am not a radical traditionalist. But I am a traditionalist. I remember what we have lost. The recessional hymn tonight from the National Cathedral at the anti-abortion Mass was none other than “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”…Years and years and years since I have heard that.
However convinient that you think that my genearation openly embraced the dreck that came in the years after 1970, guess again. We have maintained our vigil. We have prayed year after year after year that the Mass we knew as kids would be restored.
Gratias tibi Domino! It’s back.
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Volodymyr_988
Guest
We’ve always sung that one down in Southern Illinois. (Belleville Diocese.) It’s tattooed into my brain.
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brotherhrolf
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Its tatooed in my brain since childhood along with Praise to the Lord and Come Holy Ghost. But if I hear each of the three once a year at my cathedral parish, I consider myself blessed. The congregation also belts out Immaculate Mary the one time we sing it in May.
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