How does Ukrainain liturgy differ from

[mgy100]

If the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy is Byzantine, how does it differ from say an eastern Church called a Byzantine or any of the other byzantine rites? And do they have first communion in the eastern church or is it as I read a part of the baptism (some say it used to be like that, it’s hard to find answers)? Just wondering about the differences. I noticed one of my Franciscan professors from college is the pastor of a conglomerate of a Byzantine Parish and thought that was neat, I don’t recall him talking about that in college. I have gone to the Ukrainian Catholic Church but don’t know what makes it different from say this guy’s church, which is Byzantine?

 

[rcwhiteh]

mgy100:

If the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy is Byzantine, how does it differ from say an eastern Church called a Byzantine or any of the other byzantine rites?

Byzantine is Byzantine; the Liturgies of St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom or St. James are the normal liturgies of any Byzantine Catholic church. The “Ukrainian” title indicates the recension, which is an ethnic identity within the Byzantine Rite.

Don’t forget: there are also Roman Catholics in Ukraine. Don’t confuse them with Ukrainian Byzantine Catholics.

mgy100:

And do they have first communion in the eastern church or is it as I read a part of the baptism (some say it used to be like that, it’s hard to find answers)?]/QUOTE]
Usually, you receive the Mysteries of Baptism, Chrismation, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist all at one go. I had it that way when I entered the Ukrainian Recension of the Byzantine Catholic Church at age 24 (I’m 44 now); both of my children had it that way 14 and 7 years ago. respectively. It’s still common.

mgy100:

I have gone to the Ukrainian Catholic Church but don’t know what makes it different from say this guy’s church, which is Byzantine?

Probably the only real difference is the use of Church Slavonic as the official language of the church.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

mgy100:

If the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy is Byzantine, how does it differ from say an eastern Church called a Byzantine or any of the other byzantine rites? And do they have first communion in the eastern church or is it as I read a part of the baptism (some say it used to be like that, it’s hard to find answers)? Just wondering about the differences. I noticed one of my Franciscan professors from college is the pastor of a conglomerate of a Byzantine Parish and thought that was neat, I don’t recall him talking about that in college. I have gone to the Ukrainian Catholic Church but don’t know what makes it different from say this guy’s church, which is Byzantine?

There are 14 different Churches that follow the Byzantine Rite. There are three primary liturgies in this Rite: the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (the most common), the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil (used for certain specific times in the Church year) and the Liturgy of the Presanctified (used during Great Lent).

In general, these are identical from Church to Church. The primary exceptions will be in the bishops who are commemorated, in the language that is used (Old Church Slavonic in the case of Ukrainian Catholic Churches), and possibly in the number o litanies used (the normal is three, but sometimes the second and third will be eliminated).Another difference will be whether or not a deacon is present. Melkites seem to have the most deacons in the United States while Ukrainians and Ruthenians have very few. The presence or absence of the deacon can affect the Liturgy.

I hope this helps…

Deacon Ed

 

[mgy100]

Thanks! I like to learn. On the subject of communion, the priest asked me the first time I took communion there and my daughter was standing there and he asked something like, "her? I think I should my head no, and he said “not yet?” I didn’t know if he was going to give communion to her because it is a practice in his church or if he was asking if she had received first communion. I would let her take communion if it was the practice of the church. The Ukrainian Church I have gone to only uses english and sometimes sings in the old langauge… my great aunts know Ukrainian, my dad’s generation doesn’t know it and I sure don’t know much at all.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

mgy100:

If the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy is Byzantine, how does it differ from say an eastern Church called a Byzantine or any of the other byzantine rites?

Mgy,

I think a couple of your specific questions got missed. While there are 14 Churches within the Catholic Communion that use the Byzantine Rite (as Deacon Ed noted), in the US the term Byzantine is specifically used by the parishes of one of the 14 - the Ruthenian Church. You might, for instance, see a church named “St. Joseph’s Byzantine Catholic Church” - with no other description used in the parish name (e.g., Ukrainian or Melkite or Romanian), you could be pretty much assured that it was a Ruthenian Catholic parish.

Most other Churches which use the Byzantine Rite indicate that they do so by describing themselves as “Greek-Catholic” - so, for example, you might see “St. Joseph’s Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church” as the name of a Ukrainian Catholic parish.

And do they have first communion in the eastern church or is it as I read a part of the baptism (some say it used to be like that …)?

Traditionally, in the Eastern Catholic Churches, babies were Communed and Chrismated (Latin=Confirmation) at the time of Baptism.

There was a long period, especially in the US, during which many Latin Church practices were either imposed on the Eastern Churches or adopted by the Churches themselves, in an effort to “fit in”. Such practices, which are foreign to our Traditions, are called “latinizations”. A few of the many examples that I could list:

• celibate clergy,
• use of pews and kneelers,
• use of statues instead of icons,
• use of altar rails instead of iconostases,
• celebration of Latin liturgical practices like Benediction,
• adoption of Latin devotional practices like Stations of the Cross, and
• separation of the Holy Mysteries (Latin=Sacraments) of the Eucharist and Chrismation from that of Baptism.

With the latter, came First Communion and Confirmation ceremonies, as in the Latin Church.

Since Vatican II, the Eastern Churches have been under a mandate to restore their own Traditions and eliminate latinizations that have been allowed to creep into our liturgical practice and church life over decades (and, in some cases, centuries). This has meant, among other things, a return to the practice of infants receiving the fullness of what are sometimes referred to as the Mysteries of Initiation and elimination of “First Communion” and “Confirmation” ceremonies later in childhood.

Some Churches reacted more quickly than others to making these changes and restoring ancient practices. Even within a specific Church (e.g., the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church) some eparchies (Latin=dioceses) are more advanced than others in doing so. So, regretably, it is still possible to attend different parishes of the same Church in different parts of the US and see a difference in practice.

(There are also, reportedly, some places where infant Communion has been re-introduced but a ceremony called “First Solemn Communion” is being celebrated at about the typical Latin age for First Communion. Apparently the point is to satisfy parents who don’t want to give up the white dresses, white suits, etc. that they recollect from their childhood.)

(continued)

 

[Irish_Melkite]

I noticed one of my Franciscan professors from college is the pastor of a conglomerate of a Byzantine Parish

There are a number of Ruthenian Franciscans and, in fact, at least a couple of the Ruthenian Eparchs (Latin=Bishops) come from a Franciscan heritage.

I have gone to the Ukrainian Catholic Church but don’t know what makes it different from say this guy’s church, which is Byzantine?

I think Deacon Ed addressed the differences as to language. Byzantine (Ruthenian) parishes almost invariably celebrate the Divine Liturgy (Latin=Mass) in English; some Ukrainian parishes also do so. The chant style differs and Liturgy at a Ruthenian parish will most likely be chanted, while recited Liturgies are sometimes encountered in Ukrainian parishes.

As Deacon Ed mentioned, there will be some minor differences in prayers and each church will commemorate its own Eparch. Depending on the particular parish, you might observe more Latin influence in a Ukrainian church (e.g., statuary or stations of the cross on the walls) than in a Ruthenian one, as the Ukrainians in some cases have been a bit slower to eliminate latinizations than have other Byzantine Rite Churches.

On the subject of communion, the priest asked me the first time I took communion there and my daughter was standing there and he asked something like, "her? I think I should my head no, and he said “not yet?” I didn’t know if he was going to give communion to her because it is a practice in his church or if he was asking if she had received first communion. I would let her take communion if it was the practice of the church.

Ordinarily, one adheres to the practice of one’s own Church with respect to the matter of an infant being communed - so, you did the right thing if you are a Latin Catholic and your child hasn’t yet received her First Communion.

The Ukrainian Church I have gone to only uses english and sometimes sings in the old langauge… my great aunts know Ukrainian, my dad’s generation doesn’t know it and I sure don’t know much at all.

It sounds as though you may be a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic, regardless of the fact that you might have been raised in a Latin parish. A child’s membership in a Church sui iuris is determined by the Church of its father in most instances. From what you say briefly here, it sounds as though your Dad’s family may have been Ukrainians of the Byzantine Rite who, like many others, ended up being raised in Latin churches - which doesn’t change what they are, no matter how long they attend them or even if they have received all their Sacraments in them.

If that sounds to you like your family situation and you want to explore your spiritual heritage more, just say so - there are several Byzantine Catholics on this forum, mainly Ruthenians (Al/a pilgrim, Michael/Hesychios, David/ByzCath, Adam/Akemner, Edwin/Edwin1961) and Melkites (Deacon Ed and me), Rose/Pani Rose (who is a Ruthenian/Melkite hybrid ), as well as some Latins (Amado, James/Jakub, JGC, and Wannabee - whose identity I think I have figured out ) who are very knowledgeable about the East - but we could probably scare up a Ukrainian among our friends and any of us will be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Many years,

Neil

btw, I knew I recognized your nick from another thread - you gave a great response to a certain irritating poster who declared he was going to go Byzantine as a protest against the NO Mass

 

[wannabee]

Hey Neil - there is Ukie who posts here from time to time - no not me - I’m the wannabeee

 

[Irish_Melkite]

wannabee:

Hey Neil - there is Ukie who posts here from time to time - no not me - I’m the wannabeee

WB,

I don’t think I have seen Ukie, but I have got you figured out

Many years,

Neil

 

[mgy100]

thanks everyone. The thing is, I know some things about the Ukrainian heritage, but I grew up hearing more about my Irish heritage. My grandmother was Ukrainian. She was born a Ukrainian Catholic. That’s my dad’s mom. Whe she came down and married my paternal grandfather (who became CofE, anglican because his good friend was the pastor of the local church) she switched to C of E. Some of the few surviving great aunts are still Ukie Catholics, and I remember some went to the Orthodox church(which is only a couple miles away from the Catholic Church). The Ukrainian Catholic church cemetary is kinda like a family cemetary, I am related to many of those buried there. Oh yeah, one more thing, I’d have to say once lots of people moved away from the home, or farther away from the Ukrainian Catholic Church, they Latinized, besides my granny, my great aunt died last year, she Latinized and then went Orthodox. And yes, I grew up on paska bread and pierogies (they called them, correct me on the spelling prohoys I can say it, just can’t spell it).

 

[Irish_Melkite]

mgy100:

And yes, I grew up on paska bread and pierogies (they called them, correct me on the spelling prohoys I can say it, just can’t spell it).

Mgy.

pirohi . I got your pm, but haven’t had a chance to reply, will try and do so late tonight.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Great answers but I have three minor corrections/clarifications…
Deacon Ed:

In general, these are identical from Church to Church. The primary exceptions will be in the bishops who are commemorated, in the language that is used (Old Church Slavonic in the case of Ukrainian Catholic Churches), and possibly in the number o litanies used (the normal is three, but sometimes the second and third will be eliminated).

First, Fr Deacon Ed,
I believe that the Old Church Slavonic is used more by us Ruthenians than the Ukrainians. It is only used in the very old Ukrainian parishes. I think Ukrainian is used more often.
Irish Melkite:

If that sounds to you like your family situation and you want to explore your spiritual heritage more, just say so - there are several Byzantine Catholics on this forum, mainly Ruthenians (Al/a pilgrim, Michael/Hesychios, David/ByzCath, Adam/Akemner, Edwin/Edwin1961) and Melkites (Deacon Ed and me), Rose/Pani Rose (who is a Ruthenian/Melkite hybrid ), as well as some Latins (Amado, James/Jakub, JGC, and Wannabee - whose identity I think I have figured out ) who are very knowledgeable about the East - but we could probably scare up a Ukrainian among our friends and any of us will be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Second, Neil,
You are correct, I am Ruthenian but as you made an exception for Rose, I think I fit that also. I am Ruthenian by birth and attend that when I visit the Holy Land (Pittsburgh) but at home I attend a Melkite parish. So do I not qualify as a Ruthenian/Melkite hybrid too?

Third,
You will also find a great difference in the translations used between the churches as each one has their own translation of the Divine Liturgy and other services/prayers.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

ByzCath:

Second, Neil,
You are correct, I am Ruthenian but as you made an exception for Rose, I think I fit that also. I am Ruthenian by birth and attend that when I visit the Holy Land (Pittsburgh) but at home I attend a Melkite parish. So do I not qualify as a Ruthenian/Melkite hybrid too?.

David,

Indeed you do and I apologize for the oversight I’m still hoping that one of these times when I drive up to Buffalo that it will be on a weekend and I’ll be able to attend Divine Liturgy with you at that beautiful church .

Many years,

Neil