How exactly does grace save someone?

[Nick_Jones]

The Holy Bible, New King James Version
Rom. 8:37 through Rom. 8:39 (NKJV) 37Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This passage is talking about separating us from the love of God, which can’t be done. We can, however, be separated from God Himself, through serious, unrepented sin. If we choose to commit mortal sin and refuse to repent, God will still love us just as much as He loves anyone else but we will be separated from Him, spiritually (lose our salvation).

I hope all this makes some sense!

Cheers
Ken

Hi Ken,

Actually if you read it in context, it is about the security that the elect (saved) Christians have in Christ, and cannot lose:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[TDiGaetano]

Jesus uses a parable to compare two different kinds of “faith” in Luke 18:9-14, but only the one who trusted in (had faith in) God’s goodness went home justified:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

---

The kind of faith that saves is trusting in the goodness and mercy of God and nothing else.

So we just have to humble ourselves before the Lord to have faith? What I am asking is in

Eph 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

My question is about “through Faith” Where in the Bible does it tell me what Faith should consists of and how does Grace work through it to save me?

Is faith simply saying I believe or does Faith consist of more then just belief?

 

[eaglesmark]

Hi to everyone…

In Eph. 2:8-9, it is cleary said that we are saved by the grace of God. We recieve God’s grace through faith.

Our actions shows what we believe (our faith), but it does not mean that it is necessary to attain salvation. Our faith or what we truly believe will be seen by other people through our works.

Abraham’s faith was seen (justified) by other people through his action. But God does not need to see our works before He is convinced that we truly believe or have faith in Him.

Faith and work will never go side by side… but work will follow after faith… Just like a soldier who wears his uniform… It’s not the uniform that makes him a soldier, but he’s already a soldier that’s why he wears a soldier’s uniform. He will be recognized as a soldier because of his uniform. But what if he removes his uniform? Does it mean he’s no longer a soldier? He is still a soldier but it would be hard for him to be recognized as a soldier. Is a uniform necessary to enlisted in the army? No… uniforms are worn by soldiers already, not those who wished to join the army. Can other people wear a soldier’s uniform without being in the army? Yes, but they are not part of the army…

Is works necessary for salvation? no…
Can any man do good even if they have not recieved the grace of God? Yes! but they are not yet saved, since salvation is God’s grace an can only be recieved through faith not works.

If I say I’m a Chrsitian but I do opposite to what a christian should do, can somebody recognize me as a christian? No… Then my faith would be useless (dead) since I can’t be seen as a light to the world.

As Christ had said in Mat.5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Our action or works as Christian is just like the salt’s flavor. By it we are known that we believe in Jesus Christ. But if we lost our good works or sin a mortal sin, what good are we? Can others be lead to Christ through our action or works if others see that what we do as christians has no difference at all with those who do not believe in Jesus Christ? Jesus may call us a “good for nothing christian”

If faith + God’s willed good works = salvation
we would destroy the meaning of grace… “unmerrited favor” as written in Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

In Rom. 4:5 -6
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

But please try to see in Act 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

As what the apostles have been teaching… it’s

Repentance + Faith = Salvation,

Repentance that we can do nothing that can please God and to attain salvation. As in Rom 3:10, There is none righteous no not one. Rom. 3:23, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Isa. 64:6, “… all our righteousness is as filthy rugs…”

Faith in Christ that he alone can save you and me. Rom 6:23, “…but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
John 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Faith that is required here is a trusting faith. Heart faith, Rom 10:9 - 10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[eaglesmark]

So we just have to humble ourselves before the Lord to have faith? What I am asking is in

Eph 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

My question is about “through Faith” Where in the Bible does it tell me what Faith should consists of and how does Grace work through it to save me?

Is faith simply saying I believe or does Faith consist of more then just belief?

Saying i believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that what he did on the cross and he rose from the dead was to save you and me is enough if really came from the heart. You believe and accept (TRUSTING FAITH) that Jesus as your Lord and One and Only Saviour. And this faith will be manifested through yor actions.

Others believe that Jesus as the Saviour of mankind but would not accept Him to be their saviour. Their faith is manifested through their works. They have faith but not the faith that would lead to salvation that is the Trusting Faith

Some say they believe on Jesus Christ as their saviour, but their actions does not reflect this. Why? They turn to other things they think that would be necessary for salvation. They do good, because they think they can attain salvation by it. Or they may think that what Christ did on the cross isn’t enough. You still have to do your part for your salvation. In eph. 2:8,9, it is very clear that it is not of our selves. It is the gift of God. In titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;.

Others may say Jesus as the Saviour, but would not leave their old faith but instead would incorporate it. Like, others may say I believe in Jesus…, in Buddah, in re incarnation… etc. Jesus’ teachings is never in unity with other pagan teachings…

What others do that is opposite to faith in Jesus Christ? Instead of praying to Jesus directly, they direct their prayers to other people, or saints or angels. They think that by doing this, these people the saints or angels will help them get closer to God…
John 14:6, Jesus said, I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the Father but by me.
Others say that those saints that we pray unto were mediatrix… In 1 Tim 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
It is clear that there is only one mediator and no mediatrix…

man —> Jesus Christ ----> God

not
…—> mediatrix ---->
man…God
…—> Jesus Christ ---->

or

man —> mediatrix ----> Jesus Christ ----> God

Jesus is the only way to the Father. We have access to God only through Jesus Christ.

 

[Teflon93]

Luke 6:46: “Why do you call me “Lord, Lord” but do not do what I tell you to do?”

 

[Ignatius]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph.2:8-9)

What is meant by the word, “grace” here, and how specifically, is grace manifested in a person’s life so that a person becomes saved?

Sanctifying grace is the divine life that infuses our soul at justification (normatively at baptism) and, through the spirit of adoption, transforms the sinner into a holy son of God. As such we participate in the Divine Sonship of Jesus Christ. With this divine sonship comes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (who is the divine personification of the bond of love between God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ). Sanctifying grace is a permanent part of the soul as long as one does not reject one’s adopted sonship by committing a mortal sin, which severs one’s bond to the Father. (Mortal sin being a wholesale rejection of God’s law and love, and is distinct from a venial sin per 1 John 5:16). However, God is infinitely merciful, and sanctifying grace can always be restored to the penitent heart, normatively in the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[eaglesmark]

Originally Posted by KenEisman View Post
The Holy Bible, New King James Version
Rom. 8:37 through Rom. 8:39 (NKJV) 37Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This passage is talking about separating us from the love of God, which can’t be done. We can, however, be separated from God Himself, through serious, unrepented sin. If we choose to commit mortal sin and refuse to repent, God will still love us just as much as He loves anyone else but we will be separated from Him, spiritually (lose our salvation).

I hope all this makes some sense!

Cheers
Ken

##my comment

If salvation that God has given us, can be lost then it is not true salvation at all. And Jesus Christ is would not be a true saviour. But God’s solution is not temporary salvation…

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Is Jesus Christ only our advocate for little sins only? No! Jesus Christ is most powerful and if we would limit His advocacy to little sins then its just like saying Jesus has a limited power, but its not. Mortal or vennial sin, it is still a sin, and the bible tells us that Jesus is our advocate.

 

[Nick_Jones]

So we just have to humble ourselves before the Lord to have faith? What I am asking is in

Eph 2:8-10

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

My question is about “through Faith” Where in the Bible does it tell me what Faith should consists of and how does Grace work through it to save me?

Is faith simply saying I believe or does Faith consist of more then just belief?

No, the tax collector was humbled by the Spirit of God, who caused him to see himself as he really is: a lost and condemned sinner who desperately needs God’s mercy. The faith that justifies (makes us righteous) before God is a living trusting faith in the goodness of God by which we, who are sinners, are forgiven. How did God’s goodness make the faithful righteous? By the sacrifice of Jesus, who’s suffering, death, and resurrection paid the penalty for the sins of all who trust in Him.

How come only some people are willing to believe that Jesus suffered, died, and was resurrected? Because the grace that makes sinners born of the Spirit which makes them willing to believe, is given only to those whom God chooses.

Rom. 9:10-16

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[sodak]

Yes, God’s grace doesn’t operate in a vacume, it works through faith in Jesus.

God’s grace operates however God wills it.

Is faith simply saying I believe or does Faith consist of more then just belief?

No. James made it perfectly clear that faith without works is dead. Works is the evidence of faith. Abraham was justified by his works.

 

[eaglesmark]

God’s grace operates however God wills it.

No. James made it perfectly clear that faith without works is dead. Works is the evidence of faith. Abraham was justified by his works.

Hi,

“Faith without works is dead”, I really believe that. But when we use it to prove that we need works plus faith to gain salvation… it’s very wrong.

When we say we have faith in God, we have two audiences. First is God, and next is the fellow beside us.

Was Abraham justified in the sight of God before he offered Isaac? Yes!, but he was justified in the sight of men only after he offered Isaac.

The theme that James portrays here is our actions speaks louder than words. Our faith will be seen by others through our actions.
WORK IS THE RESULT OF FAITH.

Roman 4:
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Is the bible in conflict? No. In James who is the observer/audience of our faith? It is man. In Romans who is the observer/audience of faith? It is God.

 

[papadon]

Good morning all,

 As I read this entire thread, there are several things that jump out at me.  First is the "total depravity of man after the Fall."  And if this is true, then I can see line of thinking that *any *work that we do would negate the grace given to us.  This however is not the Catholic doctrine of grace.
 First, let us define what grace is.  The Church teaches that grace is a supernatural gift or set of gifts granted by God to a rational creature for the purpose of eternal salvation.  These gifts can be both internal and external.  The internal graces that we receive exist inside of the person that receives them.  The Church categorizes two types of internal grace; *gratia gratum faciens *which change us on the inside and make us pleasing to God, and *gratia gratis data *which are the graces we receive for the betterment of others by the fact of us receiving them.  We can classify these as healings, exorcisms, gift of tongues, etc.  Now let us look to Holy Writ for examples of the internal graces.
       *Gratia gratum faciens *as stated above make us pleasing to God and change us on the inside.  These gifts   affect a metamorphosis in our soul. As we see in John 3:3&5—“Jesus answered  him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the  kingdom of God.’” “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is  born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is  flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.’” We cannot  enter the kingdom of Heaven being of the flesh. Jesus tells us that we must be  born again, as in His discourse with Nicodemus above. But Nicodemus asks a valid  question,”How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into  his mother’s womb and be born?” John 3:4. There must be an assistance provided  by God Himself to affect this change. There must be a means to sanctify our life  from natural to supernatural. As mentioned above, this is the birth of water and  Spirit. This is what we receive in Baptism.
 Jesus also tells us in John  6:51-54, “I am the living bread which comes down from heaven; if any one eats of  this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life  is my flesh.” “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son  of man and drink his blood, you have no life within you; he who eats my flesh  and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.”  This is bread that will sustain us in this new life in Baptism. This new life is  given in Baptism, and is sustained in the Eucharist. Both of these graces are  instantaneous. Both are essential for this new life. Jesus tells us that by  following these words, we “abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear  fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide  in me.” John 15:4. These graces are meant to be permanent so they may sustain  us.
 But what are we to make of the story of Lydia in the Acts of the Apostle?  “One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller  of purple goods, who was a worshipper of God. The Lord opened her heart to give  heed to what was said Paul.” Acts 16-14 There was an illumination of her will.  It was after hearing the preaching of Paul, that she was baptized. So there  seems to be a preparatory state of grace that called her to perform the action  of being baptized. In the Gospel of John, we hear, “No one can come to me unless  the Father who sent me draws him.” John 6:44 We see that a person is called to  Jesus by an act of the Father. This act fits the definition of grace given  above.

 

[papadon]

But is it the same as the sanctifying grace that has been discussed in Baptism and the Eucharist? It doesn’t seem so. The action performed by God in Lydia was to accept what Paul was preaching and become baptized. It seems to proceed the grace, if spoken of in the sense of time. This action seems to have be meant to nudge the person to move to God. We call this actual grace, as it is aimed at a particular act. It is not permanent. This grace called actual can go by a couple of names. A grace aimed at the will, as mentioned in the case of Lydia, is called an inspiration. A grace aimed at the intellect is called an illumination.
As we read in Paul’s Letter to the Philippians, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Phil 2:12-13 So God works in our will by actual grace and by sanctifying grace in our works for his pleasure. These works that are the fruit of us abiding in the vine and being open to the graces that God will bestow on us.

I will post more to this thread later, because I have to get back to work. (Yes I have one of “those” jobs ) I just wanted to put my two cents into the discussion, and hope that no one will take offense to my post, as no offense was intended. God bless all of you and may Jesus Christ be praised!

 

[TDiGaetano]

So is it:
Faith + Work = Faith = Salvation?
Or
Faith - Work = Dead Faith = Salvation?

Romans 4
**Abraham Justified by Faith *** 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a] *

Is this not saying: Abraham believed God, and it[God] was credited to him[Abraham] as righteousness. ?

I read that as: Abraham believed God, and God was credited as righteous through Abraham.

I assume somewhere in Scripture we see God viewing Abraham as righteous?

• 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5** However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. ***

This is a very bad verse depending on which bible you are reading This is taken from the New International Version. (I really dislike these english translations) In verse 4 we see a man works he gets paid not as a gift but as it is due to him. In Verse 5 it starts off with HOWEVER, this is very important because it is refering to a man who does not work but trusts a being who justifies the wicked(I am not going to use GOD here because when has God ever justified the wicked?)The person who does no works but has faith is credited as being righteous by a deity that justifies the wicked.

6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

Does this mean that the Lord won’t count our sin against us?
No, I read it as 2 parts first verse 7**: Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered. **
This could be read as Blessed are they who asked for forgivness, and whose debt for their sins has been paid.

Read Matthew 18:21-35 The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

in verse 8** Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him**
Is there sin the Lord does not record? Is there some type of sin that the Lord just turns his back on? Through Baptisim our sins are completly forgiven. This washes away our sin, it does not prevent us from sinning before God, but it does forgive our sins that we would have commited before baptism.

• 9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11** And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.** So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.*

Abraham was 75 years old when God called him. (Genesis 12)

Abraham was born into the faith of God because he is from the bloodline of Noah. Whom God saved from the Flood. So Abraham was born and raised knowing of God the Creator of Heaven and Earth. He did the will of the Lord when the Lord called opon him because he had Faith in the Lord and did the Lord’s works. God gave Abraham the sign of circumcision as a seal of righteousness because he had faith. This Faith that is spoken of here is a Faith that Abraham practiced all his life. **Not that once he believed he was righteous before God and could never lose his faith. **

• 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.*

Faith is a walk we must do. It is becomming subservant to God and doing God’s will through us. Those who walk (do works) in living the faith will be credited by God as righteous.

To be continued…

 

[TDiGaetano]

…continued

• 13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. *
  *16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. *

The Law mentioned here as well in other places in the bible refer to the Law of Moses. The Law of God is the 10 commandments and Jesus explains God’s law in the Gosples. Do not miss inturrpret the Law of Man for the Law of God.

• 18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.*

22 This is why “it[God] was credited to him [Abraham] as righteousness.” 23 The words “it[God] was credited to him[Abraham]” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification

This is a Letter written to tell the Gentiles they too can inherit the Kingdom of Heaven by believing and following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ our Lord.

This was written during a period of time when the Early church was starting… The concept of Once saved always Saved never existed. There was misunderstanding between the Jews and the Gentiles because Jesus came to Save all of us not just the Jews. This Letter was written to give hope to the Gentiles that they too can be saved by Jesus. This was just going back to show that Abraham was “Righteous” before God before he accepted his covenant.

This chapter in this letter does not say that one does not have to Work their faith. It says that one can inherit the faith because we are all son’s and daughters of abraham, but each of us must practice our faith, work in our faith, and believe in everything promised by Jesus.

 

[TDiGaetano]

• 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5** However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. ***

This is a very bad verse depending on which bible you are reading This is taken from the New International Version. (I really dislike these english translations) In verse 4 we see a man works he gets paid not as a gift but as it is due to him. In Verse 5 it starts off with HOWEVER, this is very important because it is refering to a man who does not work but trusts a being who justifies the wicked(I am not going to use GOD here because when has God ever justified the wicked?)The person who does no works but has faith is credited as being righteous by a deity that justifies the wicked.

I’d like to apologize about this comment made in my previous post I read it out of context.

In Roman 4: 4-5
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

I was wrong for saying God does not justify the wicked… Jesus did die on the cross to save the wicked. What I said I interpreted in error. In Romans 5 is continues on about how Jesus did die for the wicked and for our sins. I appologize for this error on my part.

Justification is through faith in Jesus and not by works of law.

I should really stop reading these forms and finish reading the catechism…

I am sorry if I have misguided anyone in my error.

 

[Teflon93]

I’d like to apologize about this comment made in my previous post I read it out of context.

In Roman 4: 4-5
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

I was wrong for saying God does not justify the wicked… Jesus did die on the cross to save the wicked. What I said I interpreted in error. In Romans 5 is continues on about how Jesus did die for the wicked and for our sins. I appologize for this error on my part.

Justification is through faith in Jesus and not by works of law.

I should really stop reading these forms and finish reading the catechism…

I am sorry if I have misguided anyone in my error.

Well, let’s see what the ECFs had to say about Romans 4:4 first:

Origen:

Faith relies on the grace of the justifier. Works rely on the justice of the rewarder. When I consider the greatness of Paul’s speech, by which he says that the worker receives what is due to him, I can hardly persuade myself that there is any deed which could claim a reward from God as its due…Therefore, it seems Paul is really referring here to evil deeds, of which Scripture frequently says that they get their due reward. (Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans)

Ambrosiaster:

No merit is imputed for reward to the man who is subject to the law—either the law of works, i.e. of Moses, or to the law of nature. For he who is obliged to keep the law is a debtor. A necessity is imposed upon him by the law to keep it whether he wants to or not, so as not to be guilty, as Paul says in another passage: “Those who resist will incur judgment.” On the other hand, to believe or not to believe is a matter of choice. No one can be required to accept something which is offered as a gift. But he is invited to receive it. He is not forced but persuaded. He believes what he does not see but hopes for. This is what glorifies God. (Commentary on Paul’s Epistles)

Augustine: Paul was speaking here of the way wages are given. But God gave by grace, because he gave to sinners so that by faith they might live justly; that is, do good works. Thus the good works which we do after we have received grace are not attributed to us but rather to him who has justified us by his grace. For if God had wanted to give us our due reward, he would have given us the punishment due to sinners. (Augustine on Romans 21).

Theodoret of Cyr:

The doer of righteousness expects a reward, but justification by faith is the gift of the God of all. (Intepretation of the Letter to the Romans).

All drawn from the quite excellent “Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture - New Testament VI - Romans” put out by Intervarsity Press. Highly recommended.

 

[eaglesmark]

if

faith + works = salvation?

“that is we have to cooperate with God’s grace to attain salvation by doing good works…”

won’t God base on our works then when He will be giving salvation to a person? Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest anyman should boast.

On everything that we really or truly believe or have faith in, there is always a noticable evidence. In our action or what we do, our work reflect what we believe.

If we say we have faith in something or believe something and then our action is the opposite of it, our faith really is dead. What we say we believe in, is not what we truly believe. That is why in James 2, we can read james talking about telling your poor brother or sister be warm or be full and you are not giving them something they need to keep them warm of full then, your faith is dead.

That is why if we say Jesus as our Saviour, then there is an outward reflection of what we believe. When we do a good deed, we must not think that we it will help us get merit for salvation, but rather we do it because God will be pleased with us doing good and He will give us a reward. And salvation is never given as reward but grace.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I will simply give you the definition of grace as defined by a German Jesuit theologian. His name is Matthias Scheeban SJ. (sp) He defined grace as “nothing less than a participation in the divinity of God himself”. That said, how can it not save you? We would have to consciously turn away from God for that to happen. This is what sin is.
Deacon Ed B

 

[eaglesmark]

The biblical definition of grace: Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

“If there is participation involved, then there is work involved…then if there is work involved then it is not anymore grace”

 

[St_Aloysius]

“If there is participation involved, then there is work involved…then if there is work involved then it is not anymore grace”

And if there is no participation, no cooperation, then there is no free will–and God amounts to no more than a celestial dictator.