How Far Can the Pope Go with Changes?

[Tomyris]

Someone speculated on some other thread, I don’t recall where, now, that the new Pope may change things.

Hmmm, says I. How far can he go? I recognize that the Catholic position is that he cannot make mistakes past a certain point, but what is that point? What if he decided all sorts of things that turned the Catholic faith you have known upside down? Could he, for example, decide to canonize Luther? And how could he be stopped, except by the same Holy Spirit?
If he decided that you all had to sing Kumbayah non-stop through Lent? If he decided to wipe out canon law and start over? Or he overturned beliefs previously regarded as infallible, or even the concept of infallibility, or even the concept of faith? Or if he abolished the papacy?

I think it is almost certain you will get a very conservative Pontiff, one like the last two, who I think have been two of the finest popes you have had. I like the present one and hope the next one is as good. So this is speculative.

 

[TimothyH]

He cannot change truth revealed to us by God. He cannot change divine law.

All else in the Church is within his power.

-Tim-

 

[Della]

Most popes aren’t interested in making sweeping changes to centuries of disciplines/devotions unless he thinks it’s really necessary. Vatican II is such a change, but it’s extremely rare. Considering we are still adjusting the the results of VII, the new pope is not going to want to fiddle with liturgy any more, except to carry on the revisions already laid out. He’s also not going to rescind celibacy for the clergy or allow women priests, although the first is a discipline and not a doctrine.

As for doctrines/dogmas, he cannot change those. As you noted, the Holy Spirit abides with Christ’s Church protecting it from errors in matters of faith and morals. He can only do what his predecessors have done–pass on the teachings of Christ.

 

[Tomyris]

Most popes aren’t interested in making sweeping changes to centuries of disciplines/devotions unless he thinks it’s really necessary. Vatican II is such a change, but it’s extremely rare. Considering we are still adjusting the the results of VII, the new pope is not going to want to fiddle with liturgy any more, except to carry on the revisions already laid out. He’s also not going to rescind celibacy for the clergy or allow women priests, although the first is a discipline and not a doctrine.

As for doctrines/dogmas, he cannot change those. As you noted, the Holy Spirit abides with Christ’s Church protecting it from errors in matters of faith and morals. He can only do what his predecessors have done–pass on the teachings of Christ.

I’ve had managers who have decided to REALLY turn the place upside down. I suppose a pope could wildly revise all those things that are disciplines. But isn’t he in a position to say something like “teaching x, which has been held to be a doctrine, is wrong”, arguing that he is protecting the “true” teaching? I doubt he would, but if he decided to allow women priests, for example, could anyone (aside from God), stop him? I am not arguing for him to do any such thing, of course, I am just looking at papal powers here.

Who could tell him not to change a doctrine, besides God? If he said as pope he was allowed to do that, could you argue with him?

 

[Tomyris]

He cannot change truth revealed to us by God. He cannot change divine law.

All else in the Church is within his power.

-Tim-

What if he said he could change divine law? Or change truth revealed to us by God? Who could stop him?

Ok that’s repetitious but I didn’t want you to feel ignored.

 

[ADiosgracias]

What is Divine Law? Is contraceptive, or pre marriage sex, or reconciliation a divine Law?
How could I know what it is and what it is not?

 

[JRKH]

What if he said he could change divine law? Or change truth revealed to us by God? Who could stop him?

Ok that’s repetitious but I didn’t want you to feel ignored.

The Pope does not work in a vacuum…but as the head of the Magisterium of Bishops.
No Pope can simply change teachings willy-nilly.
Change in doctrinal teaching need to be consistent with teachings over time. In essence the underlying teaching does not change, but either new depth of understanding is added or perhaps it is expressed differently.

In the area of practices and disciplines there is more latitude but even here the Pope works with the Bishops and various other advisers in developing changes.

It is sad that so many seem to think that the Pope is this absolute Monarch type figure who can simply act on his own without regard to consequences.
In point of fact, the man who sits on the seat of Peter carries an enormous responsibility - and one not taken lightly by him. He knows that God will call him to account for his stewardship. Also he knows that the unity of the Church depends on His own humble and prayerful interaction with his fellow bishops around the world.

So - in answer to your question…if a pope began making such obviously flawed statements such as you suggest…the Magisterium would likely need to act though I do not know what form of action it would be…medical and mental evaluation of the pope surely.

Peace
James

 

[Tomyris]

The Pope does not work in a vacuum…but as the head of the Magisterium of Bishops.
No Pope can simply change teachings willy-nilly.
Change in doctrinal teaching need to be consistent with teachings over time. In essence the underlying teaching does not change, but either new depth of understanding is added or perhaps it is expressed differently.

In the area of practices and disciplines there is more latitude but even here the Pope works with the Bishops and various other advisers in developing changes.

It is sad that so many seem to think that the Pope is this absolute Monarch type figure who can simply act on his own without regard to consequences.
In point of fact, the man who sits on the seat of Peter carries an enormous responsibility - and one not taken lightly by him. He knows that God will call him to account for his stewardship. Also he knows that the unity of the Church depends on His own humble and prayerful interaction with his fellow bishops around the world.

So - in answer to your question…if a pope began making such obviously flawed statements such as you suggest…the Magisterium would likely need to act though I do not know what form of action it would be…medical and mental evaluation of the pope surely.

Peace
James

Ok, you have prompted the question: what if He did become certifiably insane? If He announced he was Minnie Mouse and he was talking to the moonbeams in the Vatican Garden, and they were telling him to eat only marshmallows and God was a Tonka Truck named Tinkerbell? Could he be removed? By whom? If he refused medical or mental evaluations?

 

[Corki]

Someone speculated on some other thread, I don’t recall where, now, that the new Pope may change things.

Hmmm, says I. How far can he go? I recognize that the Catholic position is that he cannot make mistakes past a certain point, but what is that point? What if he decided all sorts of things that turned the Catholic faith you have known upside down? Could he, for example, decide to canonize Luther? And how could he be stopped, except by the same Holy Spirit?
If he decided that you all had to sing Kumbayah non-stop through Lent? If he decided to wipe out canon law and start over? Or he overturned beliefs previously regarded as infallible, or even the concept of infallibility, or even the concept of faith? Or if he abolished the papacy?

I think it is almost certain you will get a very conservative Pontiff, one like the last two, who I think have been two of the finest popes you have had. I like the present one and hope the next one is as good. So this is speculative.

There is no “Catholci position” that the Pope cannot make mistakes. One of the conditions for an infallible teaching is that it be in harnony with the constant teaching of the Church. Therefore, most of the worries in your list would not be possible.

 

[pablope]

Ok, you have prompted the question: what if He did become certifiably insane? If He announced he was Minnie Mouse and he was talking to the moonbeams in the Vatican Garden, and they were telling him to eat only marshmallows and God was a Tonka Truck named Tinkerbell? Could he be removed? By whom? If he refused medical or mental evaluations?

We put our trust in Jesus, who after all, is building this Church on the rock of Peter…that He will act in time to prevent such a thing.

If you study CC history…when it needs reform, there are those called to reform the Church…and it is not necessarily the Pope who leads the reform.

Names you should start reading about are…Catherine of Sienna, Teresa of Avila, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Dominic, founder of the Dominican Order.

 

[JRKH]

Ok, you have prompted the question: what if He did become certifiably insane? If He announced he was Minnie Mouse and he was talking to the moonbeams in the Vatican Garden, and they were telling him to eat only marshmallows and God was a Tonka Truck named Tinkerbell? Could he be removed? By whom? If he refused medical or mental evaluations?

A very good question. I do not know what the official procedure would be in such a case.

I would suggest that it is very unlikely that a pope would go insane for the simple reason that the process of getting there weeds out the unstable types and the fact that the pope is generally in his 60’s before he is even elected works against this possibility.
Of course there are diseases of age - dementia such as Alzheimer’s- that can result in bazaar behavior, but these are generally very gradual and a normally stable and deeply spiritual person would very likely yield to his advisers to be checked out medically.

As Pablope says above, we hope and trust the Holy Spirit to prevent this from happening.

Peace
James

 

[sw85]

No one can deprive a Pope of his office. So, as has been said, we’d just have to hope, trust, and pray.

Which is why it’s important that we also hope and trust and pray BEFORE Popes are elected, that we may not be saddled with a bad one!

 

[Della]

Using the new manager as an example, when a new manager comes in he can certainly reconfigure how things will be done, but he cannot decide that the company will now produce marshmallows when it has been making bicycles for 100 years. That’s not within his powers or his job discription.

The same with the pope. His “product” is the teachings of Christ as interpreted by the Magisterium=all the bishops of the Church including himself. He cannot decide to ditch any teaching on a whim any more than the manager of the marshmallow company could–not without a major rebellion/desertion by the “workers” and answering to the head of the company, in our case, Christ himself in the person of his Spirit.

I read that C. S. Lewis’ block to becoming Catholic was this very worry–that the pope could change Church teaching at will. The fact is, he cannot. He can reappoint people within the hierarchy and bring a different management style to his office (as clearly seen when each new pope takes office), but he will not and never could change doctrine/dogma. He could elevate (if that’s the right word) doctrine to dogma, but that is a long process and one he doesn’t do by simply deciding one morning that we’ll have a new dogma. It’s not that simple.

 

[Genesis315]

There’s a traditional axiom that the Pope’s authority is “ad aedificationem non ad destructionem ecclesiae”–to the building up, not the destruction of the Church. According to the First Vatican Council, the Pope’s authority is *at the service *of whatever “according to the ancient and constant faith of the universal Church” handed down in the “acta of ecumenical councils and the sacred canons” and approved “by the perpetual usage of the churches” is of divine right in the Church.

For example, during the debates at that Council, some bishops worried that saying the Pope had universal ordinary jurisdiction would mean he could simply do away with the episcopate. This was answered with the above axiom. The Pope’s powers are not unlimited, but rather are limited by the divine and natural law. Since the episcopacy exists by divine right and is a constitutive element of the Church, to do away with the episcopacy is to act to the destruction of the Church. Therefore, such an act would be invalid–if it is even possible for a Pope to decree such a thing in the first place.

To bind the Church to heresy or worse or to abolish what is divinely established and necessary to the Church of Christ would be to destory the Church. The Church is indefectible, remember. No one can destroy the Church, not even the Pope! That is the promise of Christ which we adhere to with faith.