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Jestersage
Guest
One of the rule some TradCat abide is “If the FSSP is far from you, go to SSPX.” The question is “how far” before this come into effect?
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Vadne
Guest
There is no “rule” whatsoever about such things. This is a matter for one’s conscience and one’s confessor.
C
commenter
Guest
It is not accurate to say “there is no rule”. The rule for Catholics is that they should go to an approved Mass. The Masses offered by the SSPX, or the American Catholic Church, or SSPX resistance, or dozens of other agencies are not approved. They are held in defiance of the local bishop.
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Vadne
Guest
SSPX Masses meet the Sunday obligation under certain circumstances.
And even beyond that, we are, after all, currently in the age of “Who am I to judge?”
And even beyond that, we are, after all, currently in the age of “Who am I to judge?”
S
Saxum
Guest
Go to the SSPX if one is available. The Magisterium has allowed us to attend the SSPX as long as we don’t intend to separate ourselves from Peter. I attend an SSPX Mass every Sunday but I attend the Ordinary Form most days of the week. Never lose contact with the local Catholic Community or your local Bishop. Attend the SSPX for the Mass but don’t follow their lead when it comes to Vatican ii etc. I listen to the Magisterium.
C
commenter
Guest
" Never lose contact with the local Catholic Community or your local Bishop." True, a Catholic is supposed to remain in “contact” with their local Catholic Community; but in Catholicism, what is the relation to one’s bishop-ordinary? When I read Scripture, the code of canon law, catechism, or for that matter, when I read Pope St. Pius X, I see a different relationship with the bishop-ordinary than staying in contact.
The SSPX does not have bishop-ordinaries or pastors. Having a confessor is great, and having Catholic buddies is great also, but not a substitute for a bishop or pastor. How do we benefit from them exercising their episcopal or pastoral roles (as opposed to “contact”?)
The SSPX does not have bishop-ordinaries or pastors. Having a confessor is great, and having Catholic buddies is great also, but not a substitute for a bishop or pastor. How do we benefit from them exercising their episcopal or pastoral roles (as opposed to “contact”?)
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Vadne
Guest
We live in a complicated world with lots of gray (as the current pope loves to point out).
Some Catholics live in extremely difficult situations, with bishops who are problematic to say the least in terms of one’s spiritual health and sanity.
But most Catholics have practically no contact at all with their bishop. It’s not ideal, but it’s life.
Some Catholics live in extremely difficult situations, with bishops who are problematic to say the least in terms of one’s spiritual health and sanity.
But most Catholics have practically no contact at all with their bishop. It’s not ideal, but it’s life.
S
Saxum
Guest
To my mind, it means that I pray for my Bishop in every Mass and in my private prayers. It also means that I continue attending the OF Mass and always make an effort to read the diocesan newspaper and visit the Cathedral. The SSPX is great but one can lose contact with the local Catholic diocese - and I’d hate to do that. My Bishop is very important to my Faith because he’s my link to Peter.
C
commenter
Guest
Perhaps it would be better to split the original poster’s question on different levels:
So my visit the A/G Sunday service had unintended results.
- Does the FSSP recommend attending SSPX, or do they say attend a nearby, OF Mass offered in obedience to the rubrics if no EF is available?
- “Does SSPX meet the Mass obligation”…
is a different question from…
“Is it prudent for me to attend the SSPX”?
So my visit the A/G Sunday service had unintended results.
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yankeesouth
Guest
It doesn’t address the op’s question directly but here is some good advice from a priest…
wdtprs.com
ASK FATHER: During Year of Mercy can I go to SSPX Masses for my Sunday Obligation?
From a reader... May I attend a Mass by an SSPX priest during the Year of Mercy to fulfill my Sunday obligation? What is the current status of their Mass and is it affected by the Year of Mercy declaration by Pope Francis on the SSPX? Yes, attendance at a Mass by an SSPX priest can fulfill your Su
wdtprs.com
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C
commenter
Guest
[/quote]
I often agree with Fr. Z. But this advice is a slippery slope. He suggests that you don’t “regularly” attend SSPX without a good reason, and if you do, only at a chapel genuinely part of SSPX.
But what is regularly? Could be 4 weeks a year, or 40.What is a good reason? what constitutes a chapel that is really part of SSPX, when that organization itself has challenges that declare themselves to be the Real SSPX?
And of course, if SSPX is justified, what about the American Catholic Church, and a dozen clones on the Left, who are essentially the SSPX of the Left? Open the door for one, you open the door for all.
In other words, Fr. Z in this blog ignores the reality of original sin, and how it clouds our judgements. There is a word for persons who deny the need of a current, living human authority to interpret scripture and tradition. That word is Protestant.
It all gets back to prudence. If I trust myself to interpret scripture or tradition, I am not being prudent, and my choices impact on weaker brothers.
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yankeesouth
Guest
Well that is your opinion and how you see it but I believe the Pope said they are Catholic. And of course we see liberal politicians publicaly dissent from teachings of Jesus and still claim to be Catholic. Definitely an issue in the Church today on how one can get different advice depending on who you are listening to. In fact one hears frequently that Catholics may attend protestant services as long as their Faith is strong. Shouldn’t that apply in this instance if you deem SSPX protestant. I heard within a week two priest giving two completely different advice on whether a Catholic should attend a same sex ‘wedding’. I’m sure we could both come up with multiple examples to support each others ‘advice’. In the end one is going to do what one is disposed to do and will find the support to justify it.
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Saxum
Guest
I attend the SSPX with the permission of my Dominican spiritual director. He encouraged me to attend their Masses rather than the local OF because the priests of the SSPX are generally very orthodox. He doesn’t agree with their position on Vatican II but he said that their preaching is better than most OF priests. I agree. SSPX chapels are very devout and I always learn something new by listening to the sermons.
C
commenter
Guest
There aren’t any “OF priests”.
There are priests who offer the Mass in OF, and/or in EF, who are in union with their bishop-ordinary. Some preach better than others, but all have some supervision or accountability from the Magisterium.
There are other priests who offer the Mass in OF, and/or in EF, or some variation of either, who are not in union with their bishop-ordinary. Their Masses are illicit.
It should be emphasized that most of the priests offering illicit Masses, at least in the US, are probably offering something like the OF. Most are on the Left, free lancing, or belong to groups like Rent-a-Priest, or a number of spin offs of Old Catholic movement, which are very liberal. A minority offer something like the EF. Of those, some belong to SSPX, but at any given point some are in defiance of SSPX, though they may or may not have left it yet.
None of the priests Left or Right - who offer illicit Masses have the guidance of a bishop - ordinary, and the laity don’t have that particular recourse if problems arise. You can appeal to the supervisor in the SSPX, or American Catholic Church, or Rent-a-Priest, but you don’t know what kind of guidance or authority that supervisor has; they are not in the college of bishops or in union with the pope.
If a child (or a neighbor) knows their parent attends illicit Masses (with solid priests, we will assume), the child may well accept that it is “normal” to attend illicit Masses in general, and later go seeking out any kind of illicit Mass that pleases them; and most illicit Masses are not offered by priests you or I would consider solid.
…“Prudence”…
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tseleehw
Guest
Yes - in this era of “who am I to judge” and “follow your conscience” it is becoming harder and harder to justify following any such “rule” about not attending an SSPX mass. In fact, I think there could be a case made that those insisting on strictly following such a rule could be considered “rigid” and “legalism” which Pope Francis has frequently spoken out against. While in the past it may have been considered right to adhere to the letter of the law in such a matter as this, as we’ve discovered in the last few years, nothing is black and white any more, there are only shades of gray. I think it can safely be said that in deciding whether or not to attend an SSPX mass, do not look to rules or laws, but rather follow your own conscience.
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C
commenter
Guest
“…Prudence…”
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Saxum
Guest
It’s a shorthand way of describing priests who don’t know how to celebrate the EF Mass or the other Sacraments. There’s no harm in using this convenient label to describe priests because it doesn’t imply that they’re not as good or somehow deficient - it simply designates them in a category apart from priests of the SSPX or FSSP who might be called EF priests.
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Fuerza
Guest
The American Catholic Church states flat out on their website that they are not under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church. They also recognize female ordination and same sex marriage. It is not even fair to compare them to the situation of the SSPX.
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Saxum
Guest
The SSPX are often subjected to unfair criticism. I don’t agree with their position on Vatican II but they’re generally very orthodox. They’re far better than a lot of OF priests I’ve known.
C
commenter
Guest
Ok. The analogy is imperfect, though you have seen worse. But FWIW:
- This group, and similar ones I alluded to, does advertise as Catholic. They often refer to Pope Francis, I would not be surprised if they have his picture up. They have “Franciscan” associations, portray themselves as fully in the Catholic tradition.
- At least some of their priests are validly ordained, some of their Masses are valid, all are illicit.
- They vary in origins, but I bet some of these groups justified their origin as a temporary emergency measure due to difficulties with the Vatican, not anything wrong with Catholicism itself.
- Most of them cite Canon Law, and various Church documents to support their positions. The SSPX does this, though they may cite different documents.
- The splinters on the Left have gone though various splits. The SSPX had, and currently has, this issue too.
- I know one RCC priest who joined the American Catholic Church because of anger over certain things, but he still agreed with the Magisterium on most things. After years of being in there, I think he has taken on their position on many other things. It happens gradually.
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