How far from FSSP before SSPX is okay?

[commenter]

The SSPX are often subjected to unfair criticism. I don’t agree with their position on Vatican II but they’re generally very orthodox. They’re far better than a lot of OF priests I’ve known.

Actually I have problems with their ignoring St. Pius X, especially related to Catholic Action. The saint emphasized the need for a coordinated response: family level; parish level; regional level; national and international levels - to social challenges. Where I live, the SSPX attached families are isolated from other Catholic families. They favor prolife, but are not involved in diocesan prolife activities. They rarely join in something, like the March for Life in Washington organized by the dioceses, but they are absent from 99% of parish, regional, and national efforts for religious freedom, education, sanctity of marriage, evangelism, etc. As near as I can tell, the people point to the absence of the Latin Mass locally in the 1970s as justification for their continuing isolation now, in spite of 2 diocesan TLMs in 2017.

It may have been as you say unfair criticism to attack them in the 1970s. In my own diocese, I was angry too about liberal abuses then. But it is not unfair to criticize them now for remaining in the 1970s fort, if that means isolation for some families in 2017. It is almost like a government office, that gets created for one purpose, then constantly finds ways to justify its perpetual existence.

Even if Cardinal Burke were chosen as our next pope, and Athanasius Schneider our next bishop ordinary, I don’t think the local chapel would dissolve. If all their grievances were satisfied they would find others. It is not because they are bad people, it is just human nature. That is why I think it imprudent to attend there; it encourages them to stay separate.

 

[Saxum]

Actually I have problems with their ignoring St. Pius X, especially related to Catholic Action. The saint emphasized the need for a coordinated response: family level; parish level; regional level; national and international levels - to social challenges.

This sounds really interesting. I know nothing about Catholic Action but the message is one I’ve been repeating for years. I love Opus Dei because they also encourage a coordinated response. I’ve long believed that the laity must step up and engage the culture.

Where can I get information about Pius X and Catholic Action?

Where I live, the SSPX attached families are isolated from other Catholic families. They favor prolife, but are not involved in diocesan prolife activities. They rarely join in something, like the March for Life in Washington organized by the dioceses, but they are absent from 99% of parish, regional, and national efforts for religious freedom, education, sanctity of marriage, evangelism, etc. As near as I can tell, the people point to the absence of the Latin Mass locally in the 1970s as justification for their continuing isolation now, in spite of 2 diocesan TLMs in 2017.

I agree wholeheartedly. I attend an SSPX chapel every Sunday with the permission of my Dominican Spiritual Director who agrees that the SSPX are very good at teaching the basics of Catholic doctrine. I also attend to remain in contact with very good friends who have embraced Lefebvrism; my aim is to help them see that Vatican II is legitimate and is in continuity with Tradition. The SSPX chapel is great (for the most part) but I lament their bunker mentality; they deliberately separate themselves from the local Catholic community and this is unfortunate.

 

[commenter]

This sounds really interesting. I know nothing about Catholic Action but the message is one I’ve been repeating for years. I love Opus Dei because they also encourage a coordinated response. I’ve long believed that the laity must step up and engage the culture.

Where can I get information about Pius X and Catholic Action?

agree wholeheartedly. I attend an SSPX chapel every Sunday with the permission of my Dominican Spiritual Director who agrees that the SSPX are very good at teaching the basics of Catholic doctrine. I also attend to remain in contact with very good friends who have embraced Lefebvrism; my aim is to help them see that Vatican II is legitimate and is in continuity with Tradition. The SSPX chapel is great (for the most part) but I lament their bunker mentality; they deliberately separate themselves from the local Catholic community and this is unfortunate.

re: St Pope Pius X, I would start with his encyclical on Catholic Action. Note that he, and other popes, correlate “action” with “true doctrine” (for instance, the Church as the Body of Christ). In recent years we have tended to heavily emphasize “action”, usually in response to the media, and neglect doctrine. See how St. Pope Pius X’s ideas build on the social teaching of Leo XIII, so often quoted out of context nowadays, and are cited by Pope Pius XI (Quadregesimo Anno) and others. Re: Catholic social teaching, I found Chesterton and Belloc help lay out the general principles. I would like to hear from others on this forum their suggestions on contemporary applications of Catholic Action.

You might also ask people at SSPX or Opus Dei for suggestions about writings on Pius X or Catholic Action. SSPX is not completely wrong with their “bunker” mentality, they are wrong to build the bunker walls only around SSPX, against the local diocese. Pope Benedict predicted there will be a smaller Church, with people who genuinely believe; and an increasingly hostile outside environment. He was right. We do have to “engage the culture”, but be careful we don’t get absorbed into it.

I would prefer a diocese that is perfect. I have decided not to wait, and to work within the diocese I have. I do some things to make it more orthodox, and cooperate with the existing, imperfect ministries.

 

[Saxum]

re: St Pope Pius X, I would start with his encyclical on Catholic Action.

I’ll read this today. I’m looking forward to it because the SSPX frown on Opus Dei. I hope this encyclical will help me defend the lay apostolate.

Re: Catholic social teaching, I found Chesterton and Belloc help lay out the general principles. I would like to hear from others on this forum their suggestions on contemporary applications of Catholic Action.

I love GK and Belloc. They’re fantastic! I also appreciate Dale Alhquist’s work on distributism etc. This topic is also something I’d like to explore and discuss on the forums.

 

[rmichaelj]

After the Popes recent approval of SSPX marriages when working with the local Bishop, I don’t believe that you can say with certainty the SSPX masses are even illicit anymore. To do so you would have to assume that the nuptial mass is licit, but the other masses aren’t?
I’ll grant that it is a confusing topic, but in Charity- I have to assume that the SSPX masses are now licit (putting aside the SSPX argument that they have always been licit due to the state of emergency).

 

[Jestersage]

After going through this:

• It MAY be okay to attend an SSPX mass, provide there was not a FSSP Church nearby
• It MAY become an issue to be involve in their “parish” or other activities.

 

[commenter]

After the Popes recent approval of SSPX marriages when working with the local Bishop, I don’t believe that you can say with certainty the SSPX masses are even illicit anymore. To do so you would have to assume that the nuptial mass is licit, but the other masses aren’t?

I’ll grant that it is a confusing topic, but in Charity- I have to assume that the SSPX masses are now licit (putting aside the SSPX argument that they have always been licit due to the state of emergency).

I lack the canon law knowledge to assess the licit status of their services. I can, however, assess the prudence of attending their services, as you can, though insisting on charity, as you do.

FWIW, Luther’s early followers (who called themselves Catholics, not Lutherans) argued they were still in the Catholic Church, but needed temporary separate activity to restore the ancient Catholic Faith, obscured by recent abuses. This was, in the 1500s, justified as a state of emergency. 5 centuries later, the state of emergency structures linger on.

just sayin’

 

[rmichaelj]

I think it is more important WHY your are attending an SSPX mass. For example- To get my soul to heaven and/or protect my Children - then you are probably OK.
On the other hand- I’m going so I can badmouth the Pope and other Bishops- probably need to rethink you motivation and pray for humility.

PS- I go to Novus Ordo, FSSP, and SSPX. You can find cranks at all of them. My experience at the SSPX is while the priests are upfront about disagreeing when the Pope or a Bishop says something out of line with the Catholic Faith, they do not bash the office or the person of the Pope (and yes I’m sure there are exceptions to that, or if you catch a priest on a bad day). They are also upfront about the extent of the infiltration of Modernism into the Church (which I agree wholeheartedly with- see the papal encyclical “Pascendi Dominici Gregis”). They believe the Novus Ordo while valid (provided the priest has the right intention) is harmful because of the way and the reason it was developed and the risk of having the focus of the mass not be on Christ as well as a loss of a belief in the True presence. Having grown up Novus Ordo, and now experiencing both, I can see their point. Personally I think the danger depends on the particular parish and if you only go to the Novus Ordo. If you go to both I don’t think there is any significant risk (although you may develop a cringe at how casually our Lord is handled at most Novus Ordo masses.

My final recommendation is that if you want to talk to a priest about it- go to an FSSP or other traditional priest and discuss it with them. My experience is that most diocesan priests 1. have no clue about the issues involved and may not know about the changes that have taken place with the SSPX’s status in the last few years, and 2. tend to be hypersensitive on the subject- I have seen some very emotive reactions when the topic has come up.

And as always pray, pray, pray.
JMJ
Michael

 

[rmichaelj]

I’ve heard the argument before. FWIW I find it to be an extremely poor comparison. Luther went off the rails pretty quick and introduced extreme changes in worship and beliefs which had been upheld for hundreds if not over a thousand years. No one can accuse the SSPX of that- quite the opposite. Luther appealed to his own authority (in which he claimed to speak for “scripture”) whereas the SSPX appeals to the authority of previous Popes and Councils.

A comparison has also been made to Athanasius if you would like to investigate a different analogy .

Dominus Vobiscum
JMJ

 

[commenter]

Luther went off the rails pretty quick and introduced extreme changes in worship and beliefs which had been upheld for hundreds if not over a thousand years. No one can accuse the SSPX of that- quite the opposite. Luther appealed to his own authority (in which he claimed to speak for “scripture”) whereas the SSPX appeals to the authority of previous Popes and Councils.

I wasn’t comparing them theologically - Sola Traditio is somewhat different, but still parallel, to Sola Scriptura. It has a similar impact regarding one’s relation to the current pope and bishop ordinary.
I was looking at human nature. I worked for the government. I can’t tell you how many “temporary” public and private programs were started to meet some emergency, that lingered on forever. Even if the original problem is resolved, or no longer relevant, or less important than something else now going on, the institution keeps finding new purposes, new reasons to maintain their independence.

Think of some of the non religious organizations familiar to you. Do they ever reach a point where they say, “Well, most of our original purpose has been met. It is wasteful to raise money for a separate organization. We will continue work towards our mission, not organizational identity”. Sure they do.

Instead of spending all their time and money to their original purpose, these kinds of movements now spend half their time and budget defending, justifying, the organization itself, its separate identity takes on a huge priority. The organization promotes 2 messages to its supporters:
1.) Things have never been worse, that is why this organization is still needed;
and
2.) Things have never been better, in that we are almost at the point of victory or vindication. Just hold on (in our separate organization) a little bit longer!

 

[Saxum]

I know the SSPX official position on Vatican II. However, many of their priests quietly hold different opinions. I’ve really benefited spiritually by attending the SSPX chapel, but if I’m honest, many of the other laity worry me; many are sedevacantist, many doubt post Vatican II canonisations, and they isolate themselves from the local diocese. That being said, the SSPX chapel is FAR better than many of the local diocesan parishes.

 

[commenter]

I don’t have much info on the situation in France. Your insights are helpful. We all tend to think the Church everywhere is like our own country, or our own city.

 

[ajourney]

I have been to 1 SSPX service and it was beyond outdated. No joy whatsoever and, of course, the women had to wear dresses (below the knee) and cover. I remember Church life before VII, and it was nothing like the SSPX service I attended. The last 3 Popes have offered them a way to come into full communion with the Church, but unless they “get their way” the chance of reconciliation is nil.

 

[Saxum]

I remember Church life before VII, and it was nothing like the SSPX service I attended.

I think it must be the specific chapel you attended. I’ve spoken to several old ladies and they say that the SSPX is exactly what it was like when they were young. Our local chapel has many young Catholics and nobody is ‘outdated’ in their dress or behaviour; although the women do dress modestly (as they should at Holy Mass).

 

[Saxum]

I agree with this point. I attend SSPX Mass in England and there are many sedevacantists but most of the information comes from the USA. Regarding safe environments, I can honestly say that the SSPX chapel is the most safe environment I’ve found. The devotion, reverence and sermons surpass anything I’ve seen at the diocesan Masses. It is my belief that the SSPX will be reconciled and that Rome will issue a final authoritative interpretation of Vatican II that is in continuity with Tradition. I also believe future generations will thanks Archbishop Lefebvre for helping to save the Traditional Mass and spirituality.

 

[Debbie_Kono]

I am blessed with an Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest parish only twelve miles from me. Perhaps there is one near you? http://www.institute-christ-king.org/home/