How far is too far?

[ialsop]

In the New Agey Eastern spiritual stuff, obviously meditation can be Christian, and we can “baptize” those practices, but how far is too far? When do I leave spirituality and enter idolatry?

As a side not, I bet most of you thought my thread was about chastity when you saw the title…

Thanks!

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

How far is too far along what measurement axis?

For example, we can argue endlessly over the comparison between contemplative prayer, described in CCC 2709-2724, and what we presume to be eastern meditation, but there is aq lot of misinformation going around so my idea is listen to them if you want; just don’t buy into an idea unless it seems right to you and fits with other sources, like the Bible or CCC.

They grew up with different cultures so they have different points of view about life. I’m not an expert but I’m interested.

What do you envision when you think of eastern v western? And are you talking about eastern Catholics or non-Christians entirely?

I didn’t necessarily think it was about chastity, but I can see how that title could have fit.

 

[ChurchSuffering]

As a side not, I bet most of you thought my thread was about chastity when you saw the title…

Thanks!

Lol I did! I actually have a thread with the exact same title!

 

[GEddie]

I think any distance in that direction is too far.

Eastern religion and new-age have zero commonality with the Gospel. We just don’t need it.

IMNAAHO and ICXC NIKA

 

[SuperLuigi]

In the New Agey Eastern spiritual stuff, obviously meditation can be Christian, and we can “baptize” those practices, but how far is too far? When do I leave spirituality and enter idolatry?

Thanks!

You may need to discuss this with your Confessor.

 

[Reepicheep]

You may need to discuss this with your Confessor.

This is exactly the right advice. Talk this over with your priest.

 

[thistle]

I think any distance in that direction is too far.

Eastern religion and new-age have zero commonality with the Gospel. We just don’t need it.

IMNAAHO and ICXC NIKA

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I think any distance in that direction is too far.

Eastern religion and new-age have zero commonality with the Gospel. We just don’t need it.

IMNAAHO and ICXC NIKA

zero? really? seems like a pretty absolute statement.

 

[christofirst]

zero? really? seems like a pretty absolute statement.

Indeed! Individual Catholics who feel the need to avoid the practices of other religions can certainly do so, but to say that this must be so for all of us runs counter to the teachings of our Church. Consider this from the 1984 Vatican document, The Attitude of the Church Toward Followers of Other Religions:

**"The Dialogue of Religious Experience:

At a deeper level, persons rooted in their own religious traditions can share their experiences of prayer, contemplation, faith, and duty, as well as their expressions and ways of searching for the Absolute. This type of dialogue can be a mutual enrichment and fruitful cooperation for promoting and preserving the highest values and spiritual ideals. It leads naturally to each partner communicating to the other the reasons for his own faith"**

And of course there’s this oft quoted chestnut from the 1989 Vatican document, On Some Aspects of Christian Meditation:

"That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to man today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures."

and also,

"These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with Eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough examination so as to avoid the danger of syncretism."

This last teaching, I think, answers the OP’s question, how far is too far. The prayer practices of other religions can be of beneficial use to us Catholics who feel drawn to them, provided we are grounded in our own faith, and do not stray into syncretism (the idea that one religion is as valid as another, or that all religions are ultimately the same).

 

[thistle]

Indeed! Individual Catholics who feel the need to avoid the practices of other religions can certainly do so, but to say that this must be so for all of us runs counter to the teachings of our Church. Consider this from the 1984 Vatican document, The Attitude of the Church Toward Followers of Other Religions:

**"The Dialogue of Religious Experience:

At a deeper level, persons rooted in their own religious traditions can share their experiences of prayer, contemplation, faith, and duty, as well as their expressions and ways of searching for the Absolute. This type of dialogue can be a mutual enrichment and fruitful cooperation for promoting and preserving the highest values and spiritual ideals. It leads naturally to each partner communicating to the other the reasons for his own faith"**

And of course there’s this oft quoted chestnut from the 1989 Vatican document, On Some Aspects of Christian Meditation:

"That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to man today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures."

and also,

"These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with Eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough examination so as to avoid the danger of syncretism."

This last teaching, I think, answers the OP’s question, how far is too far. The prayer practices of other religions can be of beneficial use to us Catholics who feel drawn to them, provided we are grounded in our own faith, and do not stray into syncretism (the idea that one religion is as valid as another, or that all religions are ultimately the same).

I don’t agree with your view. ANY New Age cults should be avoided like the plague.

 

[christofirst]

I don’t agree with your view. ANY New Age cults should be avoided like the plague.

Praise God that there is room in our Church for both of us!

I hesitate to ask you for examples of what you consider to be “New Age cults”, but based on my understanding, I would never recommend that anyone join a cult either.

Christian prayer which utilizes the practices of non-Christian religions is not necessarily “new age”, and does not in itself constitute a cult.

 

[Bookcat]

In the New Agey Eastern spiritual stuff, obviously meditation can be Christian, and we can “baptize” those practices, but how far is too far? When do I leave spirituality and enter idolatry?

New Age? - stay away…

As to non -Christians…

Read this grom the Church:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

 

[thistle]

Praise God that there is room in our Church for both of us!

I hesitate to ask you for examples of what you consider to be “New Age cults”, but based on my understanding, I would never recommend that anyone join a cult either.

Christian prayer which utilizes the practices of non-Christian religions is not necessarily “new age”, and does not in itself constitute a cult.

Forget the word cult then.

Anything to do with New Age should be avoided like the plague!

 

[schaeffer]

The Catholic faith is a rich one. There are prayers, rituals, sacraments, traditions etc etc that address all things spiritual.

Why, if one is a devout Catholic…go dipping into another pot when one can get all they need within the teachings and traditions of the Church? Do you not trust that all you need is there, within the teachings and traditions of the Church itself?

Sure, there are spiritual practices outside the Catholic Church that may be useful…but there are so many practices WITHIN the Church, why take chances? Why not practice obedience, humility, and faith, and use what the Church offers to bring one to a greater spirituality?

I read a lot of these threads here (I’m not Catholic) and I wonder why people always want to push the envelope and dance on the edge and taunt others over this issue. Your own faith is brimming with everything anyone could need to grow in spiritual maturity. Why not take advantage of it and quit taunting each other with how far one can or can’t go off the path before they’ve put themselves in the danger zone.

I doubt God/Jesus is holding out on you and keeping the “real deal” spiritual practices for people of a different faith, embrace Catholicism and see where that takes you.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

If you live your whole life inside a palace, you will never know, or need to know, what it looks like from the outside.

And if you don’t know what it looks like from the outside, then you really don’t know what it looks like. You hear the shouts coming in through the windows, but have no idea what they are seeing or why they are saying the things they say.

Like a fish telling me why it’s better to be underwater than outside when it has no basis of comparison. It has no idea what it’s like to be in water because it knows no other.

Kind of like Sabastian in the Little Mermaid – why would a fish ever want to go outside its own water? No reason for some; others may be more curious about the nature of this water that gives them life.

The Little Mermaid - Under the Sea

 

[christofirst]

If you live your whole life inside a palace, you will never know, or need to know, what it looks like from the outside.

And if you don’t know what it looks like from the outside, then you really don’t know what it looks like. You hear the shouts coming in through the windows, but have no idea what they are seeing or why they are saying the things they say.

Like a fish telling me why it’s better to be underwater than outside when it has no basis of comparison. It has no idea what it’s like to be in water because it knows no other.

Kind of like Sabastian in the Little Mermaid – why would a fish ever want to go outside its own water? No reason for some; others may be more curious about the nature of this water that gives them life.

The Little Mermaid - Under the Sea

This really gets to the larger question: Do non-Christian religions have anything of value to offer us Catholics? I don’t mean anything essential. We hold the fullness of truth. But have other religions found ways of approaching or understanding God that, while different from ours and imperfect from our point of view, can still be of use to us? The overly cautious among us would say no, non-Christian religions have nothing we need. And in terms of salvation, they are right. But have they anything else to teach us, or does God just allow their existence so we can convert them?

I maintain that the eastern non-Christian religions have a great wealth of experience that, because God allowed it to develop in ways different from our own tradition, can be helpful for some of us in better putting our own faith into practice. And the leaders of our Church, as I have pointed out above, acknowledge this possibility.

 

[InNomineDomini]

I maintain that the eastern non-Christian religions have a great wealth of experience that, because God allowed it to develop in ways different from our own tradition, can be helpful for some of us in better putting our own faith into practice.

I don’t have a solid opinion on this, but I largely disagree.

This sort of approach is kind of like eating a bowl of green Jell-O that happens to have a bit of antifreeze in it: hey! so much here is good, so surely the bit of poison is alright too?

Any good that is in any other religion is already present in our own. But ours doesn’t have the poison mixed in.

Of course, how God has mercy on those others is not really the topic here; and just because He may have mercy on someone of a different religion, doesn’t mean that it’s because of the religion, and not in spite of it.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And certainly don’t break it.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

This really gets to the larger question: Do non-Christian religions have anything of value to offer us Catholics? I don’t mean anything essential. We hold the fullness of truth. But have other religions found ways of approaching or understanding God that, while different from ours and imperfect from our point of view, can still be of use to us? The overly cautious among us would say no, non-Christian religions have nothing we need. And in terms of salvation, they are right. But have they anything else to teach us, or does God just allow their existence so we can convert them?

I maintain that the eastern non-Christian religions have a great wealth of experience that, because God allowed it to develop in ways different from our own tradition, can be helpful for some of us in better putting our own faith into practice. And the leaders of our Church, as I have pointed out above, acknowledge this possibility.

8
Exactly. If I’m a train, I’m supposed to stay on the rails. When I was on haitus from church for a few years in the 80’s, it was actually non-denominational Fred Price, who in one TV show gave me a reason to buy a Bible, that 8 years of Catholic grade school never did. That’s another reason to go outside; you can’t even see what’s inside until your eyes are open, and the eyes typically don’t open until the self is denied – either by humility or “suffering” or both, typically.

I don’t have a solid opinion on this, but I largely disagree.

This sort of approach is kind of like eating a bowl of green Jell-O that happens to have a bit of antifreeze in it: hey! so much here is good, so surely the bit of poison is alright too?

Oh, silly. I didn’t say anything about swallowing it. Taste it, let your immune system get a quick sample of it for later reference in case it comes back to haunt you in a less obvious way.

Any good that is in any other religion is already present in our own. But ours doesn’t have the poison mixed in.

I’m glad you feel this way; if you are otherwise complete then all you have to do it understand the lesson in Matt 19:21 and you’re good to go!

How do you feel about mixed-faith efforts such as soup kitchens and homeless shelters? Or attending weddings at non-Catholic funerals. Do you prefer to steer clear of them? I realize you didn’t say they had no value – just no value in addition to Catholics in your opinion. So I’m looking for your point of view here, not trying to trap you so I can tell you that you are wrong.

Of course, how God has mercy on those others is not really the topic here; and just because He may have mercy on someone of a different religion, doesn’t mean that it’s because of the religion, and not in spite of it.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And certainly don’t break it.

Nope, if you’re where you want to be, I wouldn’t want to push you out of that space. For me though, no thank you. I want to open my eyes and see around in this world, both the light and the shadows, that I may better understand this creation and be a better steward of it. I would not want to say you need to look around, but for me I would have cognitive dissonance. Thus we are different parts of the body. There is plenty to be done “inside” for sure.

 

[thistle]

This really gets to the larger question: Do non-Christian religions have anything of value to offer us Catholics? I don’t mean anything essential. We hold the fullness of truth. But have other religions found ways of approaching or understanding God that, while different from ours and imperfect from our point of view, can still be of use to us? The overly cautious among us would say no, non-Christian religions have nothing we need. And in terms of salvation, they are right. But have they anything else to teach us, or does God just allow their existence so we can convert them?

I maintain that the eastern non-Christian religions have a great wealth of experience that, because God allowed it to develop in ways different from our own tradition, can be helpful for some of us in better putting our own faith into practice. And the leaders of our Church, as I have pointed out above, acknowledge this possibility.

You should read the book Catholics and the New Age by Father Pacwa.

 

[christofirst]

You should read the book Catholics and the New Age by Father Pacwa.

I’ll trade you my copy of Prayer of Heart and Body: Meditation and Yoga as Christian Spiritual Practice, by Father Thomas Ryan, for your copy of Catholics and the New Age, by Father Mitch Pacwa .