How far out of my way do I have to go in this situation?

[The_Otaku]

In the past I made a thread here asking about the legality and morality of downloading mp3s. I’m not surprised to see I’m not the only one who has done this. It’s always that fine line between morality and legality, sometimes.

I come with an updated question:

If I want to make an mp3 for a song that belongs to a soundtrack, and the soundtrack itself is rare, an import item, and something not found in stores, how far do I have to go out of my way to acquire the cd, before I defer to simply downloading an mp3 illegally?

For instance, there’s just a few songs I want from the disc, but the disc can usually only be found on e-bay and specialty sites, and the price is ridiculously inflated (usually in the 40 dollar range, not counting what it would cost to ship it to you…this cost is further increased if it’s an international shipment).

If all I want are several songs from the cd, and this series does not exist in the iTunes library, etc, and it is not likely it ever will be, morally, am I allowed to download the few songs for free via another means, provided it was just for these few songs? Or, in order for this to be completely right morally and legally, I’d have to spend the ridiculous price of 40+

I can see how in most instances the case it easy to answer: just buy the cd at your local store or download the songs on iTunes, etc. It’s easy to say that if you are expecting to pay 5-12 bucks for the cd or iTunes is even an option, not 40 or more and iTunes is not an option!

But in cases like this, with an item that’s extremely rare, hard to find, or ridiculously priced because of it’s rarity, is it at all morally permissible to download the few songs since there is no other way of acquiring them other than to bite the bullet and pay the unreasonable price of the cd?

Threads like these can annoy people, and I understand why, because in the process of asking the question, you answer it for yourself. I know the answer and the answer is it’s never right and that even if I want just one song, I have to buy the cd in this case, even if the price is inflated.

It’s just frustrating at how unreasonable this is. Personally, I don’t think God really cares about petty little human matters like this. He only cares if it damages our soul. I don’t see how doing something nice with a song, more than just downloading it to listen to it, hurts anyone.

You might say it hurts the company who made it. Well, what if that company doesn’t exist anymore? Or what if this is not an item they make money off of anymore? Or what if it’s an item that’s discontinued or no longer in production or circulation? Is it ok then? If you can say yes it’s ok after thinking of this, and you don’t feel guilty saying it, then why is it all that immoral?

You can’t say you’re cheating the seller either, because when you’re talking about e-bay, you’re not really shopping in a store so your business is not required to be with any one individual whom you could buy the product from. So in downloading it illegally, you’re not hurting them, it just means they were unable to sell that auction item which you were not obligated to buy, and can try again later if they want.

So if neither the seller is hurt, and most likely not the creator, are downloading the songs ok morally speaking? At points like this when everything seems to favor doing it, you question why you’re still hesitating and you think it’s foolish. Even more than that, you wonder if anyone even cares whether you do it.

I’d gladly pay the few dollars to download a few songs if that was an option. But 40+ shipping and handling? That’s really pushing it, and asking alot…not because it’s expensive, but because it’s ridiculous that you’d have to go that far just to do the right thing. It’s like your conscience forces you to go farther than you should have to to do the reasonable thing. But how is this reasonable? It feels like your own morals are doing you in or scalping you, or you’re allowing the system to take advantage of you simply because you want to do the right thing.

Suppose it wasn’t just one soundtrack, but 3 or 4. And altogether, I wanted a total of 6 songs from all of them. This is just an example. Lets say they all cost upwards of 50 dollars. Am I really, in good conscience supposed to not get angry and willingly pay hundreds of dollars for a few songs because there’s no other legal way of acquiring the songs?

I can understand how its’ easy to answer those who want to steal when it’s easy for them just to pay the dollar or buy the cheap cd. Those people just want something for nothing and they shouldn’t gripe about having to pay a measly buck. But when you’re talking big money and your options for doing the right things are all but eliminated, when does doing the right thing becomes foolish and a form of self punishment? Purposely putting roadblocks in front of yourself just so you think you’re doing the right thing seems delusional almost.

And if you’re going to do it over something as simple as mp3s, then how much more for the things that really matter.

 

[bpcatholic]

I couldn’t help but laugh while reading this (I did read all of it). It reminded me of something from Monty Python for some reason.

Anyway, I would not recommend getting the song illegally. I wouldn’t buy the cd if it where that expensive. Obviously the songs aren’t worth the money so why should it be worth breaking the law? Doing it illegally is dihonest, and God does not like that. Is there a possibility of getting it from your library and then making a copy? Or is that illegal? If it is, don’t do it.

 

[The_Otaku]

I couldn’t help but laugh while reading this (I did read all of it). It reminded me of something from Monty Python for some reason.

Anyway, I would not recommend getting the song illegally. I wouldn’t buy the cd if it where that expensive. Obviously the songs aren’t worth the money so why should it be worth breaking the law? Doing it illegally is dihonest, and God does not like that. Is there a possibility of getting it from your library and then making a copy? Or is that illegal? If it is, don’t do it.

Oh, I’m an actor at heart, so I don’t get offended by that. I take it as a compliment.

And no, because it is a video game soundtrack getting this at a library or borrowing or loaning or any other means than buying it or downloading it illegally isn’t an option. I had planned to use some of these songs as background music for some speed painting videos I was going to make and then share on youtube. The videos would consist me of me drawing to the tune of these songs. I could do the videos without the music, but the problem is (and anyone can attest to this) that when you watch an artist draw, and there’s dead silence as they do it, it’s boring as heck! Music adds an essential element to videos of this nature, more than just there to keep the attention of the viewer, but to immerse them in the emotion of the piece you are creating right before their eyes.

I think my desire is noble, but the price just to use a few of these songs is too steep. The reason these particular songs are important is because the pictures I’d be drawing as I record myself drawing them are of characters that belong to the game the soundtrack is for. So it sort of fits like that that you’re watching me draw characters to their theme songs and such. People familiar with the songs especially, would enjoy the videos more because of the music selection.

Only for these particular projects are the songs essential. Otherwise, for other videos I’d make, any song I like could do, and if it’s an easily attainable song, paying for it isn’t an issue.
The reason this is an issue is because generally speaking there are lots of anime or video game series that have OSTs (original sound tracks) that are either rare, uncommon, or in short supply. Because all of these products come from Japan, everything is an import until a domestic version is created. Problem is, most of the time, they don’t bother making a domestic version. It’s one way for people in the North American market and in Japan to be able to scalp you, as they realize they’ve got a specialty item and it’s not possible to buy it under normal circumstances, so they can fiddle with the price as much as they like.

Often, you have to go through a great effort just to find that these cds actually exist, and then find out where to buy them, find out if the company speaks english or not, etc. It’s a real pain, and then to have to pay an inflated price, whether it’s being sold by an american in America, or someone overseas.

All of this just for for a few songs…when I can easily just download the mp3s in a few minutes.

I support the japanese animation industry by buying their products when I can afford to buy them. I’m not saying this entitles me to help myself to some ‘freebies’, but considering I’ve sworn off illegal downloading of anime episodes and shows, I feel like I’ve earned at least some leeway here since alot of money can go into this hobby, and I honestly don’t see how downloading some songs and putting them to good use is hurtful. In a way, I’m giving back to them what they gave to me, and it helps them advertise their product indirectly, through me.

It’s not the same as hording songs for an mp3 player or ipod and never buying cds again and taking what you can while the taking is good. The mentality behind this decision is completely different. What I wonder is if this is different enough to not be a mortal sin, when it could be otherwise. No one should want to commit a venial sin either. Of course, when people have an agenda, like I do here, they’ll rationalize things even when they know they shouldn’t. And I guess that’s why I’m posting this concern here, so someone can set me straight. I don’t have anyone else to tell me I shouldn’t or to guide me in this matter.

Thank you for your post.

 

[bpcatholic]

Oh, I’m an actor at heart, so I don’t get offended by that. I take it as a compliment.

It was actually meant to be a compliment. I love Monty Python!

I wouldn’t think that downloading it would be a mortal sin, but I wouldn’t recomend it though.

 

[The_Otaku]

It was actually meant to be a compliment. I love Monty Python!

I wouldn’t think that downloading it would be a mortal sin, but I wouldn’t recomend it though.

I like Monty Python too. Which one was your favorite? I don’t have a favorite, but think they’re all pretty nice. They got into somewhat blasphemous territory with the Life of Brian though, making light of crucifixions and mishearing Jesus as saying “blessed are the cheese makers” You have to laugh, but you know it’s wrong.

You and I had better go to confession pronto. Just talking about Monty Python is an occasion of sin.

Out of curiousity, and to supplement the answer you gave me, why is it that you think it would not be a mortal sin? Did you arrive at that opinion strictly on a case by case basis and because of my explaination and feel this situation is an exception to grave matter? Or, are you saying that it is still grave matter and you don’t recommend it for that reason? Or are you saying something else entirely?

This causes me to think of a new question:

If you willingly commit a venial sin, does it become a mortal sin? So, for example, if I download these songs illegally after having gone through deliberation over it, it’s now mortal because I thought it through and knew the consequences spiritually?

Or, is it possible for some things to remain neutral or venial even if the person puts themselves in that occasion of sin willingly?

Or, perhaps it’s better asked if the extent to which the person takes the action decides the gravity of the matter. Like, if I swear to only take these few songs and never do this again unless the same situation comes up with a ridiculously priced cd, or there’s no itunes for it, and I keep good to my promise, then taking them, while not ok, is not a grave offense.

Also, if I were to make amends for this behavior by buying products that match the price (alone or together) of what the cd would cost, as a means of reparation, does that count as some sort of self-penance? If so, I do this already, if not for this reason, than simply by buying products and supporting the industry as I said. I don’t buy often, but when I do, it’s more than I’ve ever taken or would take in comparison to what the worth a single cd would be. When you’re paying 30 or more for a dvd boxset and you take an mp3 with a value of what…cents maybe, but itunes wants to get you for a buck or retailers or resellers want to tell you it’s worth 40, it seems like the money I’m putting in offsets any monetary value of anything I’ve ever taken out.

 

[Eucharisted]

U.S. copyright laws state that copyrights owned by corporations are valid for 75 years from the date of first publication. So don’t steal music, games, or whatever.

 

[The_Otaku]

U.S. copyright laws state that copyrights owned by corporations are valid for 75 years from the date of first publication. So don’t steal music, games, or whatever.

You seem pretty knowledgeable. Does that apply to international copyrights as well? Or, is this something that the U.S is imposing on the rest of the world? Would it apply to me if I was not a U.S citizen or these downloads did not occur on a U.S internet server?

If so, and the U.S is playing big brother for the world, maybe I ought to move to Japan for a year, download all I can, and then move back.

 

[bpcatholic]

You seem pretty knowledgeable. Does that apply to international copyrights as well? Or, is this something that the U.S is imposing on the rest of the world? Would it apply to me if I was not a U.S citizen or these downloads did not occur on a U.S internet server?

If so, and the U.S is playing big brother for the world, maybe I ought to move to Japan for a year, download all I can, and then move back.

 

[The_Otaku]

What?

Actually, I just discovered something that I hope someone here can help me with, as it’s a technicality, but it might just be a legal work around for this.

There is screen capturing software programs (freeware) that you can download off the net for free. It’s legal and it’s free. This is relevant to me because these videos I’d be making will be made using this type of software. For those that don’t know what screen capturing software does, is it records, like a video, every frame and every second of what’s going on on your monitor. This is how speed painting or digital art videos are produced. The software is recording what you are doing in Painter, Photoshop or whatever you’re working with.

ANYWAYS…

I just discovered that this software can record audio as well and play it back. If the audio is coming from your monitor, the software can record that as well. So here is my question:

If I go to youtube or any other site where people upload music videos, and I use this software to record the music playing on my monitor (note this is not the same as downloading it), and I save the recording to the same file that the art is in, and merge them, and the audio recording is gone by doing that, is it legal and moral for me to make my videos this way?

It’s not technically the same as downloading an mp3, nor am I stealing anything because nothing tangible exists during or after the recording that could be considered an mp3. Because I created it, and it was not something I took, isn’t this different from stealing? I’m not taking anything preexisting and saving it on it’s own or converting it to a file that can be played with an ipod. What’s happening is the software is playing back what was playing on my monitor during the process of the software recording the video of me drawing. Because it’s all being saved to one file, the recording doesn’t exist anymore as a seperate thing.

So basically, if I’m not downloading an mp3 and there’s no actual file for the audio that the software is recording, then technically how am I stealing anything if nothing tangible exists? It would be different if I took the audio, attempted to seperate it from the video, convert it to an mp3 file and then put it on my ipod. That’s stealing because I made it so I can have an mp3 without having to pay for it. But this is different because the program is recording what is happening through my monitor and combining it together into a single file that is not an audio file, it is a video file that has audio in it and the audio was not originally an mp3. I’m not actually downloading anything as everything I’d be doing or hearing is happening in real time on the monitor.

Anyone want to take a stab at the legality of this?

 

[Viki63]

Copyright law is the first thing that occured to me.
I don’t know about the law, but it seems to me that using someone else’s music in your own project, and publishing it on Youtube, would be unfair to the creators. Could you maybe write or email the makers and ask for permission to use it in your project?
I suspect they would say no, which would give you a clue as to the morality of the situation.
But it wouldn’t hurt to ask.
You’re to be commended for trying to be honest. Not always easy, I know.

Addendum: the question is, did you create the music, and if not, do you have permission from the musician to use it? For a Christian, legality is not really the issue, morality is.

 

[The_Otaku]

Copyright law is the first thing that occured to me.
I don’t know about the law, but it seems to me that using someone else’s music in your own project, and publishing it on Youtube, would be unfair to the creators. Could you maybe write or email the makers and ask for permission to use it in your project?
I suspect they would say no, which would give you a clue as to the morality of the situation.
But it wouldn’t hurt to ask.
You’re to be commended for trying to be honest. Not always easy, I know.

I’ve considered that many times, but the fact of the matter is, the people I would be trying to contact are japanese and probably do not speak english, so communication with them is impossible. Even if I did send a request, these are companies, not small businesses, so I would likely be considered spam mail and their e-mail people would probably throw it away without reading it, especially as it is in a foreign language (english). It’s possible it may not even get through for various other reasons.

Also, now that you mention this, it’s a good time to bring up another factor having to do with copyrights, fair use, etc. In Japan, the japanese creators of these animes and games and music for them are actually pretty generous when it comes to their copyrights. They’re not as strict as the U.S, and it’s not unheard of for the creators to support their fanbase by allowing them to upload animes that are still in production to the internet. That is to say, they’re aware it’s happening, and they’re not going to the extent the U.S would if it was happening to us. They are also not as strict with things like comics and manga, and amateur or professionals making money by drawing fan arts and making money off of them at conventions, etc. This is because they realize the potential for exposure to their product through what the fans are doing. They don’t let the red tape necessarily stop them unless it’s costing them money.

If you did that here you’d get sued, like if you drew pictures of Superman and sold them at a comic book convention and D.C Comics found out about it. People draw anime characters here in the States and sell them at conventions all the time and everybody knows it, it’s popular, and the japanese creators know this is happening because many of them are special guests at these conventions and celebrate with the fans. As long as their profits and products are not being directly compromised, they don’t necessarily care about this activity and see it as an opportunity. It’s like a symbiotic relationship between fan and franchise and it makes the business grow when this relationship is sustained.

My point is, it depends on whose point of view and whose laws you’re looking at here. Because these things I’m dealing with are japanese influenced and the japanese usually encourage and support their fanbase, I question how much influence or authority U.S laws have for products and franchises that do not belong to them. When something is licensed in America, meaning it’s domestic, THEN they have full authority in the law because it’s something they can claim as an asset or property as it belongs to an American or an American company or business.

 

[chevalier]

The first problem with copyrights is that they are often unreasonable and used not as much to secure justice as to assure economic goals of powerful lobby.

I’m no big fan of publishers. Persecuting the pirates and talking about how it harms the artists is not fine unless the same publisher gives the artist a fair price on a fair contract, with no economic abuse of the artist. Such publishers probably exist, but I remember reading about the treatment artists were getting.

The French government toyed with the idea of eliminating the middlemen and taking all musicians on the state’s employ in order to eliminate the problem. I can’t say I didn’t like the idea.

Now, it’s sure that when you play a game or listen to a song you didn’t pay for, then you are acquiring a certain benefit normally paid for, for which you don’t pay. I would say that in some cases it’s hard to call it stealing the same way as shoplifting would be. As a lawyer I have a serious problem with the fact that downloading something could get you in more serious trouble with the law than shoplifting the same. That is because when shoplifting you don’t violate copyrights. You just steal an item of little financial worth.

In my legal system, if you steal something of little financial worth, the penalty is reduced, compared to the normal penalty for theft. There is no such provision with regard to piracy.

Also, often people in companies have to prove that they have acquired the software legally or else they are criminally liable. This goes as far as board members being held responsible because someone in the company used a pirate copy of a program for work and the company benefited and they represent the company, so they are the suspects too now and they answer for fencing (for acquisition of stolen goods). I’m not sure how those accusations fare in courts, but in my view as a criminal lawyer, they are complete bogus offending the intelligence of a lawyer.

This said, I do not advocate piracy. And I do not say it’s not a sin. I just refuse to pay heed to the publisher talk about hurt artists or piracy being such a great crime or publishers being victims of injustice and oppression. So myself, I just don’t listen to the music as much as I would like to.

 

[bpcatholic]

I think with the Japanese education system they should be able to speak english.

 

[The_Otaku]

The first problem with copyrights is that they are often unreasonable and used not as much to secure justice as to assure economic goals of powerful lobby.

I’m no big fan of publishers. Persecuting the pirates and talking about how it harms the artists is not fine unless the same publisher gives the artist a fair price on a fair contract, with no economic abuse of the artist. Such publishers probably exist, but I remember reading about the treatment artists were getting.

The French government toyed with the idea of eliminating the middlemen and taking all musicians on the state’s employ in order to eliminate the problem. I can’t say I didn’t like the idea.

Now, it’s sure that when you play a game or listen to a song you didn’t pay for, then you are acquiring a certain benefit normally paid for, for which you don’t pay. I would say that in some cases it’s hard to call it stealing the same way as shoplifting would be. As a lawyer I have a serious problem with the fact that downloading something could get you in more serious trouble with the law than shoplifting the same. That is because when shoplifting you don’t violate copyrights. You just steal an item of little financial worth.

In my legal system, if you steal something of little financial worth, the penalty is reduced, compared to the normal penalty for theft. There is no such provision with regard to piracy.

Also, often people in companies have to prove that they have acquired the software legally or else they are criminally liable. This goes as far as board members being held responsible because someone in the company used a pirate copy of a program for work and the company benefited and they represent the company, so they are the suspects too now and they answer for fencing (for acquisition of stolen goods). I’m not sure how those accusations fare in courts, but in my view as a criminal lawyer, they are complete bogus offending the intelligence of a lawyer.

This said, I do not advocate piracy. And I do not say it’s not a sin. I just refuse to pay heed to the publisher talk about hurt artists or piracy being such a great crime or publishers being victims of injustice and oppression. So myself, I just don’t listen to the music as much as I would like to.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[The_Otaku]

I think with the Japanese education system they should be able to speak english.

You’d think so, but this isn’t always the case. Being educated in english doesn’t mean they prefer speaking it, and on a corporate level they most likely don’t, and some even take offense if a foreigner is asking them to speak a language other than their native. You’re expected to speak their language. And I don’t blame them, really. We’re the same way here. If we have mexican illegals working at fast food restraunts or they just never learned to speak english well enough to communicate properly then it angers us too.

Our main language is english, and in the corporate and business world it still is. I have no doubt it’s the same for the japanese unless that company works heavily with foreigner businesses. And, I’m not just saying this so I don’t have to contact them. We already know what they’d say even if they did respond. But getting a no from them doesn’t mean this is wrong necessarily. it just means they’re doing what a business should do, and it’s the natural response to expect. On an individual level they would probably allow it, it’s only as a business that they have to act differently and because they must act as a unit, all their answers have to be the same…on the record anyways.

 

[bpcatholic]

You’d think so, but this isn’t always the case. Being educated in english doesn’t mean they prefer speaking it, and on a corporate level they most likely don’t, and some even take offense if a foreigner is asking them to speak a language other than their native. You’re expected to speak their language. And I don’t blame them, really. We’re the same way here. If we have mexican illegals working at fast food restraunts or they just never learned to speak english well enough to communicate properly then it angers us too.

Our main language is english, and in the corporate and business world it still is. I have no doubt it’s the same for the japanese unless that company works heavily with foreigner businesses. And, I’m not just saying this so I don’t have to contact them. We already know what they’d say even if they did respond. But getting a no from them doesn’t mean this is wrong necessarily. it just means they’re doing what a business should do, and it’s the natural response to expect. On an individual level they would probably allow it, it’s only as a business that they have to act differently and because they must act as a unit, all their answers have to be the same…on the record anyways.

I thought in the corporal world english was the official language.

 

[The_Otaku]

I thought in the corporal world english was the official language.

If you mean that everything translates to english in the same way math is a universal language, then yes, but that’s just splitting hairs here. Of course, I’ve done that in my time too.

 

[bpcatholic]

If you mean that everything translates to english in the same way math is a universal language, then yes, but that’s just splitting hairs here. Of course, I’ve done that in my time too.

 

[The_Otaku]

Now I’m confused by your confusion! LOL!