How Far to a Good Old-Fashioned Theocracy?

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Does that mean a theocracy? No. A theocracy is one where the spiritual leaders are also the temporal leaders. What Unam Sanctum advocates is one where the temporal leaders are held accountable by the spiritual ones.

Does that mean that Catholic doctrine on social justice be incorporated into the laws of the State? Yes. And, sorry, I don’t see a problem with that.
While I understand your desire for government to cater to your ideals exclusively (much as I disagree with it), what guarantee do you have that if all governments are made accountable to religion that that religion will be Catholicism?
 
I said that the Catholic moral order would be imposed on everyone; not the Faith. That is the temporal submitting to the spiritual. Ok, if the Pope isn’t to be the Prime Minister, bring back the Holy Roman Empire and have the Papal States returned that were wrongly taken from the Church. In any case, it’s the Church vs the World (well, there’s terrorists also, I guess, who are taking lands for Islam and there are Fundies, with various teachings for different communities, winning souls for God, but with a distorted understanding of the Bible). You want that? Goofy Jim? Fine. I prefer God’s order. At least marriages stay intact, and the infirm and the unborn live.
Are you saying, Markomalley, that the Popes of the time of Catholic domination were acting against God’s will by having theocracies? Well, their governing is fallible, yet Pope Benedict is beyond that when he says we should not have theocracies–unless, however, that means we should not have a kind where all have to be Catholics (not the case in my Austria example).
Yet under a theocracy we might be subject to certain economic principles required by Catholic thought. I am not advocating communism but I am not advocating right wing capitalism either. Since the Church is no expert in matters of the economy but only in faith and morals there are other aspects of governing that a Catholic theocracy just wouldn’t be good at. It doesn’t need to be the Church vs. the world. I like a democracy.
 
Actually, the Catholic world did have a guild system. People took pride in their work, they would never sell their manufacturing to any other group and they wouldn’t outsell the other guild by lowering prices ridiculously low. Everything subject to God is under principles God gave the Church. Thus, for the Church isn’t ruling, at least have a constitutional monarchy that does.

Democracy and capitalism replaced right order of people under a ruler and we’re as decadent and foolish as the worst of dictators. Give us a saint-ruler and we cannot screw that up by voting him out for one making promises they won’t keep.

People are going to vote in a dictator anyway. They voted in Hitler and one day, it may be a U.N. leader, maybe the ant-Christ who rises up from amongst 7 (or was it 8?) These prophesies are not set in stone unless in the Bible, but even then, the details are not clearly understood, nor should they be.
 
Are you saying, Markomalley, that the Popes of the time of Catholic domination were acting against God’s will by having theocracies?
No, not at all. in fact, the document I quoted was written in 1965. I quoted it to highlight that religious compulsion is against Church teaching.

Secondly, if you really look at history, you will find few Christian (at least Catholic) theocracies in history. Most of what actually occurred that is attributed to the Church was actually done by laymen with excessive zealotry.
Well, their governing is fallible, yet Pope Benedict is beyond that when he says we should not have theocracies–unless, however, that means we should not have a kind where all have to be Catholics (not the case in my Austria example).
 
While I understand your desire for government to cater to your ideals exclusively (much as I disagree with it), what guarantee do you have that if all governments are made accountable to religion that that religion will be Catholicism?
The fundamental source for my argument was “Unam Sanctum”

Thus for me to support the ideas in Unam Sanctum, the (Catholic) Pontiff would be the ultimate Spiritrial authority.
 
Actually, the Catholic world did have a guild system. People took pride in their work, they would never sell their manufacturing to any other group and they wouldn’t outsell the other guild by lowering prices ridiculously low. Everything subject to God is under principles God gave the Church. Thus, for the Church isn’t ruling, at least have a constitutional monarchy that does.

Democracy and capitalism replaced right order of people under a ruler and we’re as decadent and foolish as the worst of dictators. Give us a saint-ruler and we cannot screw that up by voting him out for one making promises they won’t keep.

People are going to vote in a dictator anyway. They voted in Hitler and one day, it may be a U.N. leader, maybe the ant-Christ who rises up from amongst 7 (or was it 8?) These prophesies are not set in stone unless in the Bible, but even then, the details are not clearly understood, nor should they be.
A little paranoid aren’t we. I won’t vote in a dictator. The American checks and blances was deliberately set up to prevent that. We can do away with things like abortion and such but we don’t need a theocratic government to do it. They would get like the others and just put to death certain people. We can do better than that and still establish morality. How do you know for sure that God’s Order would be a Catholic theocracy?
 
Theocracy: See Iran, Saudi Arabia
Also Afganistan under the Taliban as well. Look at Israel and some of the problems Orthodox Judaism places on that government. Maybe the day will come when we can stone those who co-habit, use contraceptives, have homosexual realtionships or have abortions. We could borrow LBJ’s theme and call it the Great Society…
 
I believe that, during the Spanish Inquisition, the lay government did most the burning at the stake and what not. Lay people probably are the ones that beat up adultresses and such and not the Church. Communication was not fast and arrogant Jesuits or the Spanish traders that brought them (probably mostly them) could bully Indians for some time. The Catholic Church would not be Iran or Saudi Arabia. The Church, too, has checks and balances. Due to special interests, in both, the wheels of justice can move slowly.
Code:
 Who is to say that a government leader, with the help of a multi-national conglomerate, could not take little bites out of their nation till they can dissolve the government?  I love Bush's appointments for Supreme Court justices and his not signing the Kyoto Protocols, which I hear even signing nations have not followed them, but, in many ways, he is selling the nation down the river--as if the conservative moves were just bones thrown to us.      

 If our Church does not control the world, by moral laws (not making everyone convert, which would be a paper conversion), the un-centralized Satanic church of the ego, commanded in a political sense, by the U.N., will.  God is the king and the Pope is His P.M..  The Popes have scientific advisors to help him speak on religion and science and lead us in what we ought to think;  why couldn't he do the same as a political leader?  If he has evil advisors, well, he is the Pope and knows theology the best.  He would not call a preemptive strike against a nation unless it were ready to attack it or did attack it.  The Church running the world would have its problems and abuses, as it is run by humans and political decisions would not be infallible, but it would be the safest ruling body.  If the Pope didn't do it, he could appoint a loyal Catholic as political leader (who would choose other loyal Catholics as advisors).
This, obviously, would require decades, if not a couple centuries, and bloody clashes like the kind St. Francis escaped. Thus, we probably would do more harm than good taking it back now politically.

There is the other option. We see our churches closed and destroyed, maybe, by atheists or terrorist-types. Priests would be executed or their activities, penalized by prison time. We would be like the underground Church suffering in China. That is equally possibly good, but not for the unborn or infirm, who would be deemed useless eaters by a one-world government that would only saves the rights of gays, rapists and pedophiles (because that depravity keeps societies demoralized and paralyzed. Can we morally allow an evil to occur for good to come of it? Maybe, but only if it happens because we are doing what we’re supposed to and nothing we’re not and not because something good may come of something evil. St. Francis got the Church of the Holy Sepulchre back from a theocratic leader, the Sultan of the area at the time, who respected his peaceful show of faith.

Dogmas declared in later times are true for earlier times. Was the bull formally declared in '65? Anyway, I never was talking about all converting to Catholicism). The Pope at the time of Lepanto, St. (I believe) Pius V had everyone pray to defend the Catholics and the lands declared for Christ, from the Muslim raiders. Thus, would it be a bad idea to at least set up a potential Catholic political machine, should enemies of it attack and run the Pope out of Rome, if it should happen as the prophesies predict? Should we allow a greater possible good, that of being the Church suffering, where Catholic people one living comfortably numb would return to a strong Faith, to happen by allowing a different enemy force to conquer Christian lands and destroy the unborn and crippled through groups like Unicef?
 
Just what exactly do you mean by a “good old-fashioned theocracy?”
As far as I can make out, the concept is a non-starter. The dictionary says it is a government by God or by person or persons directly guided by God. Since we know that God does not directly guide us, it can’t actually happen. The Church does not accept private revelation, so no one claiming divine guidance would pass muster by the Church.
Nope. Theocracy is a non-starter.
Someone above noted that some papal states were wrongly taken from the Church. Somehow that doesn’t wash. There was a war. The pope lost. His territory was taken as spoils by the victor. Standard practice.

Matthew
 
I think a lot of people here seem to be asking the same question in various forms without addressing the “meat” of it, so I will.

**How far can we as Catholics enforce “objective truth” before our society becomes a theocracy? **

For example: Contraception is a crime against nature in its opposition to life. Therefore, contraception should be outlawed.

Or a more complex and troubling example still: Atheism is an illogical and ultimately detrimental belief system that undermines the very Ultimate Reality that we know as “God.” Therefore, atheism should be outlawed.

Obviously, we as Catholics don’t want to see abortion permitted in our country. So we resolve to outlaw it. But do we want to see contraception or atheism? Should we outlaw these things because they’re wrong, then? (I think not! But where is the logic in this conclusion?)

If God created us as creatures of free will, doesn’t it only follow, then, that we are free [sic] to live as captives to sin?

How can we oppose abortion and homosexual unions and things of this sort in matters of social justice but not contraception, or religious liberty, or ANYTHING at all, really, that contradicts the truth of Christ’s Church?

Thoughts? (Make 'em good!)
Ummm, I think you’re missing the whole point. The point is that abortion is a far greater evil than contraception or atheism is.
 
I’m not sure any place that supposedly has a democracy has a pure democracy.
Whatever we had in the West when we had Charlemagne is the best situation. We don’t need leaders who please the people. It’s likely, our leaders are chosen before we vote and their attention is not on us anyway. I think capitalism versus economic communism was a destraction as is the Republican vs. Democrat performance. It should be the Church vs. “The World” and the World is represented by the Bildebergers, Illuminati, Masons (the highest levels, anyway)–whatever they’re called today. One day, we will wake up and see this.
Our vote is our behavior. We usually get the clergy we deserve and probably the secular leaders too. Sometimes a bad one can be good if it focuses us on God as the One on Whom we solely depend. We cannot depend upon manmade governments or political leaders.
When all the wealthy nations have run up a massive bill and are weak enough, the banker will come to collect. It will be the World. It will have values against the Church. It will be the rotten fruit of a Protestant and Jewish health-and-wealth package deal alliance. It will force the Church to decide if it will defend its people and how. It could brace us for suffering, which would wipe out the lazy thinking we’ve had in it since the mid-60s (due likely to a rebuilt wealth of the West since the end of WW2), or it could brace us for some kind of military battle (which might also shake s out of the stagnant post V2 spirituality).
In any case, I feel La La Land will close in my lifetime.
 
Re Papal States

They have been bought and paid for by the Italian government. The fellow who was pope at the time they were lost refused a settlement offer by the government of the time. A later pope accepted a much lower offer from the government of his time. Poor statesmanship all around. The pope needs to be done with the Vatican state so that he can actually be the bishop of Rome. As it now stands he needs a work visa and who ever heard of a government giving a work visa to a foreign, reigning monarch?

Matthew
 
If the Pope didn’t do it, maybe another chosen by him. There is a European Union. A friend of mine thinks we’ll attack Israel with a nuke and blame t on Iran to attack Iran. With China and Russia working with Iran, and who knows what other communist, communist sympathizers or Muslim nations would join in if they do, there could be a nuclear war. That would make it easer for la later Catholic monarch (if it is scheduled to happen sometime) to rise up and convert many as well as crush the enemy’s earthly gains, but the one-world government types would likely use it to squeeze the life out of independent nations as well.
 
When I follow the passionate arguments over non-essential matters of faith that occurs on these boards from time to time, I fervently hope we will never reach the point of a Catholic theocracy. The only theocracy I’m interested in is a God-led one in His kingdom.
 
So it’s ok if paganistic followers of a new world order rape and pillage and euthenize and abort the weak? Hey! As long as they are saved by confession or desire or something before they die, right? You can have that world. Of course, if a war acts as an equalizer, we’ll forget our differences and unite–most people. We need reason and Faith. We can’t just change anything that’s inconvenient and non-dogmatic because they are traditions with a small “t”. I think this fuzzy thinking would disappear once we all feel threatened and then the schismatic liberals and conservatives will come to reason and Faith–hopefully under a king and not a leader chosen via our fallen-natured wits. Don’t worry.
BTW A king would not have to be appointed–just be a good Catholic, like a Charlemagne. We liked him, didn’t we? There were other good kings also. Since after there time, we’ve just had the Bildebergers as our emperors
 
We need reason and Faith. We can’t just change anything that’s inconvenient and non-dogmatic because they are traditions with a small “t”.
I found your post confusing. Why for example, do you feel that we can’t just change traditions with a small “t”? If something is not essential to faith there is no reason it can’t be changed or stopped or at least be accepted as optional (and have everyone *respect *each others choices).

The problem with a theocracy is that too often people in positions of authority confuse their personal opinions with God’s; this delusion is bolstered if they are proven right a time or two. Before you know it, a tyrant’s every inclination is being imposed and God-given free will is held ransom to unquestioning obedience.
 
These replies are as disturbing as they are ignorant.

Anyone else out there NOT looking to resurrect all the injustices and abuses of the Church when in power?

Pope Benedict has gone so far as to call the times when the Church has been a secular (governmental) power “tragic” before. I for one agree. He is a strong proponent of democracy. Theocracies don’t work because the people are subject to religious leaders (who tend to be sinners for some reason and thus abusers of their authority) and not God (the only true Monarch, and the only one that makes it work, what’s more).
Here, here (I think:shrug:)

The Church should be out for our souls, and once our souls are taken care of, you don’t need a policeman or a king to tell you what to do.

It’s time for the world to disarm its governments and armies, and for human beings to live as individuals; fully responsible and concious “in His image” creations deciding for themselves, from the inside (and as God has created us in His image, if people look inside, they will surely do what is right).
 
We had kings as saints before. What president has been a saint? Maybe Equador had a really great one, a rarity, but it is very likely that are leaders are being chosen for us by an elite bunch. I vote, because we should not let any of these Illuminati type think we believe that.
Some things are more essential than you know. Some things were “non-essential” until made essential as a dogma, like The Immaculate Conception. Gates should be left closed or opened just for a slight adjustment to the interior. Many have been opened as unnecessarily as they are deemed to be by even conservative Catholics. The classic art of the Church, the altar rails, the classic music of the Church, the classic architecture of the Church, Limbo: all of these had good grounds for being believed and weak grounds for total dismissal.

Non-overt heretics can play with technicalities so that they can slip things through that do not get picked up on the heresy radar, but are devised from hell to make the gates of hell practically prevalent in that any balance of Faith and reason, Tradition and tradition and Faith and Charity, liberal and traditionalist are put into competition with each other. It’s great that the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church, but that’s like a president starting a war or making trade deals that do not break the nation’s laws in order to dissolve his country’s sovereignty. But hey! It’s all done by the books! Whooptee-doo!

Give me that old time religion! It was more sane. Only some flipped out then. Since the aggiornamento, most of us have gone insane making excuses for our behavior that are so scrupulously by the book, it makes traditionalists look liberal.

I hate to say it, but maybe we should ditch the monarch idea and get the Vatican destroyed by the Masonic types. Maybe we’ll get our collective heads straight and realize the traditionalists and Evangelicals were right all along about the enemy, if not about essential theological things. Satan reaped big harvests from the aggiornamento without committing heresy: it’s called the tradition with a small “t” clause. Don’t tell me I’m judging the popes or smarter than the popes. Popes are not personally infallible–just when they are declaring dogmas. These concerns are not even mine so I’m not smarter than the Pope, but theologians smarter than me make good points. Sometimes non-Catholics make the best prophets, like the one Protestant who said the N.O. Mass (holy by a technicality of having no heresy in writing in it) made it easier for them to convert Catholics.
 
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