How far we are from the true spirit of sacred music

[VociMike]

From Monsignor Valentín Miserachs Grau, director of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music:

“How far we are from the true spirit of sacred music, that is, of true liturgical music,” he lamented. “How can we stand it that such a wave of inconsistent, arrogant and ridiculous profanities have so easily gained a stamp of approval in our celebrations?”

It is a great error, Monsignor Miserachs said, to think that people “should find in the temple the same nonsense given to them outside,” since “the liturgy, even in the music, should educate all people – including youth and children.”

zenit.org/article-20951?l=english

 

[benedictgal]

From Monsignor Valentín Miserachs Grau, director of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music:

“How far we are from the true spirit of sacred music, that is, of true liturgical music,” he lamented. “How can we stand it that such a wave of inconsistent, arrogant and ridiculous profanities have so easily gained a stamp of approval in our celebrations?”

It is a great error, Monsignor Miserachs said, to think that people “should find in the temple the same nonsense given to them outside,” since “the liturgy, even in the music, should educate all people – including youth and children.”

zenit.org/article-20951?l=english

A Great AMEN to that. Incidentally, one of the other forums was asking folks what their favorite hymn was. You would be surprised to know that most of what was selected was stuff written by the St. Louis Jesuits. Very few had hymns that were liturgical appropriate.

The point that the good Monsgnor make in Zenit is similar to what then-Cardinal Ratzinger makes in “The Spirit of the Liturgy.” Popular music should stay out of liturgy. I found another good article that pulls no punches. Here it is:

crisismagazine.com/january2002/feature2.htm

I agree with the author’s assertion that perhaps the biggest offender, at least in the case of English music, is OCP. While there are perhaps fans of OCP out there, people don’t realize that OCP does not have a mandate from anyone, (USCCB, much less Rome) to “dictate” what we should be hearing at Mass. Although the article is five years old, the very problems that the piece points out still plague us today.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From Monsignor Valentín Miserachs Grau, director of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music:

“How far we are from the true spirit of sacred music, that is, of true liturgical music,” he lamented. “How can we stand it that such a wave of inconsistent, arrogant and ridiculous profanities have so easily gained a stamp of approval in our celebrations?”

It is a great error, Monsignor Miserachs said, to think that people “should find in the temple the same nonsense given to them outside,” since “the liturgy, even in the music, should educate all people – including youth and children.”

zenit.org/article-20951?l=english

We’ll have to wait and see if the Monsignor’s advice becomes a mandate.

I can’t imagine my little parish ever changing over to Gregorian Chant. I feel safe in saying that majority of the people under 50 years of age, have a clue about what Gregorian Chant is, nor would they have an interest in learning it. Such being the case, if Gregorian chant were the mandate, the parish would probably cease to exist. Then, the people would have no Mass at all to attend, never mind a Mass with traditional Music. This probably would please fundamentalist.

Jim

 

[ravenonthecross]

uh, Vatican II called for Gregorian chant to fostered, and encouraged with the parishes, that means not only should parishes use Chant, polyphony and other venerable forms of sacred music, the faithful should be educated as to what they are, why we use/preserve/encourage their usage, and how it is an expression of our faith----with so such being the case, they should see no reason to reject it, but firmly embrace it as a cherished part of their Catholic faith. Any parish that would dissolve due to the learning of chant, probably never had a strong enough faith formation/ or reason to remain in the church. If the laity are loyal to Christ, they’ll stay in his Church, and ever seek to understand her, and the many facets through which she encourages the faithful to praise, experience, glorify, love, and reflect Christ, in addition to being catechized properly in the Holy Catholic faith.

 

[VociMike]

We’ll have to wait and see if the Monsignor’s advice becomes a mandate.

I can’t imagine my little parish ever changing over to Gregorian Chant. I feel safe in saying that majority of the people under 50 years of age, have a clue about what Gregorian Chant is, nor would they have an interest in learning it. Such being the case, if Gregorian chant were the mandate, the parish would probably cease to exist. Then, the people would have no Mass at all to attend, never mind a Mass with traditional Music. This probably would please fundamentalist.

Nobody but you is saying Gregorian chant or nothing. The choice should be Gregorian chant or something equally holy, artistic and universal.

And what is with your constant injection of “fundamentalist” terminology? It’s like a mantra in your posts, designed to smear those who disagree with you.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

We’ll have to wait and see if the Monsignor’s advice becomes a mandate.

I can’t imagine my little parish ever changing over to Gregorian Chant. I feel safe in saying that majority of the people under 50 years of age, have a clue about what Gregorian Chant is, nor would they have an interest in learning it. Such being the case, if Gregorian chant were the mandate, the parish would probably cease to exist. Then, the people would have no Mass at all to attend, never mind a Mass with traditional Music. This probably would please fundamentalist.

Jim

No offense, but it sounds like your parish would rather be Protestant than Catholic. I don’t know if that is actually the case, but that is sure how your posts makes it sound.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I am thrilled with the new director and I have high hopes and expectations for his tenure.

Added unto that, the USCCB will be discussing Sacred Music at their meeting next week.

Its a new dawn for Catholic Liturgy and Sacred Music. Let’s rise to partake of the glorious day of the Lord!

 

[Sarabande]

Hello,

I am thrilled with the new director and I have high hopes and expectations for his tenure.

Added unto that, the USCCB will be discussing Sacred Music at their meeting next week.

Its a new dawn for Catholic Liturgy and Sacred Music. Let’s rise to partake of the glorious day of the Lord!

Here! Here!

Some of you already know this but I have a friend in his 20s who started an all-male chant schola this past summer. They have been successful with implementing it and traveling to various parishes around the diocese for their masses. It has received positive feedback and have been asked to return. He was also just hired to direct the choir for a TLM every week for their noon mass. It’s a very exciting time for people of my generation and those of us who are musicians.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello,

No offense, but it sounds like your parish would rather be Protestant than Catholic. I don’t know if that is actually the case, but that is sure how your posts makes it sound.

Because the young people of my parish wouldn’t understand Gregorian Chant, nor know how to put together a music ministry that could do it well enough for Mass, they’d rather be protestant?

My guess is the majority of parishes in the United States, do not have the expertise to use Gregorian Chant or other forms of classical liturgical music, in the liturgy.

Jim

 

[sphilomena]

The Monsignor’s comments are right on. Truly spiritual hymns help our prayer; not so with all the pop music. I was thinking about this very issue as we “sang to the mountains” last weekend!

 

[benedictgal]

For those of you who are interested in the direction the USCCB might be heading, here is a link to the power point preview of the document they will be discussing next week:

usccb.org/liturgy/MUSIC%20FDLCnew.ppt

I suspect that we will be seeing some changes, especially since the Holy See has asked that texts begin to conform to Liturgicam Authenticam.

 

[Marysann]

I looked at the power point presentation, and it is very encouraged. I am so glad that the bishops recognized that the changing of words in older texts to remove so called archaic language or to make it gender neutral often changes the meaning of the texts. Why can’t we leave the lovely old texts alone. Changing them reminds me of the old Bob Newhart routine about Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address where Lincoln wants to change “fourscore and seven years” to eighty-seven years, or the one where he has Mark Antony say “Friends, Romans, countrymen, I’ve got something I want to tell ya.” The old hymn texts are poetry, and should be left alone as just as much as Shakespeare. They are part of our religious and cultural heritage. New texts can be written in modern English with inclusive language, but leave the old ones alone. I still have a hard time imagining this happening. The old texts are in the public domain so they are available free on-line for anyone who wants them. The “liturgical aides” business is something that no one ever thought of before Vatican II. Individuals kept their missals until they wore out, and the parish had hard cover hymnals which were used until they wore out. It will not be easy to make money trying to sell publications full of hymns and tunes which are in the public domain. I am afraid that I have been cynical about this issue since about 1964, but I would be thrilled to spend my old age being proved wrong!

 

[benedictgal]

I looked at the power point presentation, and it is very encouraged. I am so glad that the bishops recognized that the changing of words in older texts to remove so called archaic language or to make it gender neutral often changes the meaning of the texts. Why can’t we leave the lovely old texts alone. Changing them reminds me of the old Bob Newhart routine about Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address where Lincoln wants to change “fourscore and seven years” to eighty-seven years, or the one where he has Mark Antony say “Friends, Romans, countrymen, I’ve got something I want to tell ya.” The old hymn texts are poetry, and should be left alone as just as much as Shakespeare. They are part of our religious and cultural heritage. New texts can be written in modern English with inclusive language, but leave the old ones alone. I still have a hard time imagining this happening. The old texts are in the public domain so they are available free on-line for anyone who wants them. The “liturgical aides” business is something that no one ever thought of before Vatican II. Individuals kept their missals until they wore out, and the parish had hard cover hymnals which were used until they wore out. It will not be easy to make money trying to sell publications full of hymns and tunes which are in the public domain. I am afraid that I have been cynical about this issue since about 1964, but I would be thrilled to spend my old age being proved wrong!

Unfortunately, the biggest culprit is OCP, which claims to hold the rights to 10,000 songs. They’ve mangled with older hymns such as “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” and “At That First Eucharist”. I don’t know why the bishop of Portland doesn’t just pull the plug on this group. OCP has no authority whatsover to force their junk on parishes.

Marysanne, OCP is spreading its tentacles in England and Australia. This should help explain why the music in these countries is going bad. OCP is also pushing its Spanish music repertoire, which, unfortunately includes references to Liberation Theology (a heresy condemned by both Pope John Paul II and then-Cardinal Ratzinger).

OCP’s English and Spanish arsenal of hymns celebrate the “community” and do not have anything of the majesty of God nor do they refer to Jesus as our Savior/Redeemer. They present Jesus as “brother, Teacher and Friend”, completely missing the point of His coming to us as a Man. While I have no qualms about Jesus being our brother, Teacher and Friend, he is, first of all, the Son of the living God and he is our savior.

 

[palmas85]

As I posted in another thread I heard this little gem at a Life Teen event
Jesus is my homie oh yeah oh yeah, Jesus is my homie he stand behind me

So I’d say that at least in some areas we are a long way off.

 

[Sarabande]

Unfortunately, the biggest culprit is OCP, which claims to hold the rights to 10,000 songs. They’ve mangled with older hymns such as “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” and “At That First Eucharist”.

How does one get the rights to hymns like the ones you mentioned? Aren’t they old enough to be public domain? Do they just have the rights to the music setting or the actual melodies and true text? I am so happy where I regularly attend, we don’t have an OCP hymnal.

 

[peary]

A Great AMEN to that. Incidentally, one of the other forums was asking folks what their favorite hymn was. You would be surprised to know that most of what was selected was stuff written by the St. Louis Jesuits. Very few had hymns that were liturgical appropriate.

The point that the good Monsgnor make in Zenit is similar to what then-Cardinal Ratzinger makes in “The Spirit of the Liturgy.” Popular music should stay out of liturgy. I found another good article that pulls no punches. Here it is:

crisismagazine.com/january2002/feature2.htm

I agree with the author’s assertion that perhaps the biggest offender, at least in the case of English music, is OCP. While there are perhaps fans of OCP out there, people don’t realize that OCP does not have a mandate from anyone, (USCCB, much less Rome) to “dictate” what we should be hearing at Mass. Although the article is five years old, the very problems that the piece points out still plague us today.

And WHY is that? Perhaps it is because the music ministry programs at churches for the past 40 years were not considered teaching ministries at all. The Church used to be the guardian of the arts and music. Music ministers are to blame for the lack of liturgical music education at the parish level. And the priests are to blame for letting them get away with it. People cannot love what they do not know, and that includes good liturgical music.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And WHY is that? Perhaps it is because the music ministry programs at churches for the past 40 years were not considered teaching ministries at all. The Church used to be the guardian of the arts and music. Music ministers are to blame for the lack of liturgical music education at the parish level. And the priests are to blame for letting them get away with it. People cannot love what they do not know, and that includes good liturgical music.

Before Vatican II, the choir sang, the people sat silently in the pews.

For people to sing, they had to be able to sing hymns that they could sing, without having classical training in music, Also, composers began writing songs that the average Catholic could relate to spiritually. That was the basis for Vatican II, getting people more involved in the Mass, both physically and spiritually.

Its too bad, some are unable to relate to anything outside of the TLM.

Myself, Mass is special, whether I attend a Mass in Latin, or a Mass in the vernacular. I’m not limited by what hymns or language is used.

Jim

 

[brotherhrolf]

Before Vatican II, the choir sang, the people sat silently in the pews.

For people to sing, they had to be able to sing hymns that they could sing, without having classical training in music, Also, composers began writing songs that the average Catholic could relate to spiritually. That was the basis for Vatican II, getting people more involved in the Mass, both physically and spiritually.

Its too bad, some are unable to relate to anything outside of the TLM.

Myself, Mass is special, whether I attend a Mass in Latin, or a Mass in the vernacular. I’m not limited by what hymns or language is used.

Jim

For the life of me, I must have attended two very unique parishes before Vatican II. Funny, I can remember both congregations singing entrance, offertory, Communion, and recessional hymns along with chanting the responses in Latin, chanting the Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei.

What part of "Praise to the Lord’, "To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King, “Immaculate Mary”, “Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above”, “Humbly We Adore Thee”, “Jesus, My Lord, My God, My All” did we not relate to spiritually?. The TLM had nothing to do with these hymns in English. And these hymns were sung all the way up to 1970 when they were abruptly dropped in favor of that which we have seen over the last 37 years.

Funny too, how my current parish belts these old favorites out when they are sung and does not sing anywhere near as loudly when some of the newer hymns are sung.

No, it is not an indult parish neither do we use guitars, pianos, drums, etc. Just for the record, as someone who was 18 in 1969, not everyone was happy with what was readily apparent in 1969. I am still waiting for someone after all these years to explain to me how Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” is acceptable as an offertory hymn and Simon and Garfunkle’s “Hello Darkness My Old Friend” is acceptable as a communion hymn at my high school graduation. Where is Catholic spirituality or theology evident in either of these two very popular secular songs?

Could someone explain the spirituality of these? Or was it pandering to my generation in light of what was going on in 1969?

 

[Sarabande]

When I hear a choir sing a beautiful motet during mass, yes, I’m “silent”, but it doesn’t mean that I’m not doing anything. In actuality, it can many times bring me to a much higher spiritual level as a congregant than if I “participate” in singing a hymn. Last week, our choir sang Ippolitov’s (spell?) “Bless the Lord, O My Soul”. It was absolutely beautiful and spiritually uplifting, filling the Cathedral with a transcendant form of prayer. Had the director decided to go with the status quo and only do hymns from the last 40 years or last 200-300 years, in fact, we would have never been privilaged to hear a piece of heaven and bring us to a higher realm. I would have never received that by singing a hymn. I like many hymns, but it just doesn’t cut it sometimes.

And in actuality, because they bring me to that transcedant level, a physical participation within my body is stirred - perhaps not with my voice, but there is definitely something happening to me. So I do and I suspect many others, do participate physically and spiritually in that realm.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Because the young people of my parish wouldn’t understand Gregorian Chant, nor know how to put together a music ministry that could do it well enough for Mass, they’d rather be protestant?

I’d love to do a survey on this. I would wager that the most resistance would be from the 40+ crowd, not the younger churchgoers, who seem to be embracing the traditional forms of Catholic expression that existed prior to Vatican II.