How far we are from the true spirit of sacred music

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

How does one get the rights to hymns like the ones you mentioned? Aren’t they old enough to be public domain? Do they just have the rights to the music setting or the actual melodies and true text? I am so happy where I regularly attend, we don’t have an OCP hymnal.

I remember me and my choir director looking at a hymn that GIA had copyrighted, and it had been an older hymn. What we found is that they changed maybe 1-3 notes in one section and that, I guess, was enough for them to get a fresh copyright on their version of the hymn (probably the only version of it they sold ).

 

[Sarabande]

And WHY is that? Perhaps it is because the music ministry programs at churches for the past 40 years were not considered teaching ministries at all. The Church used to be the guardian of the arts and music. Music ministers are to blame for the lack of liturgical music education at the parish level. And the priests are to blame for letting them get away with it. People cannot love what they do not know, and that includes good liturgical music.

The sad thing is, having worked in parishes as a musician and as a music teacher, priests and/or pastors encouraged this with their music ministers. Those who wanted to truly be a “guardian of the arts and music” had their voices stifled. They either left or were broken down. I know in my experience as a music teacher at a Catholic school, the new pastor there did not want me to teach anything “old” to the children. This was the same pastor who made me play the tambourine to “The King of Glory” and destroyed any tradition that this ethnically German parish had. I was only a couple years out of college, so I didn’t have the guts to say anything, but did choose to resign a few months later. I later found that he made the new litirgical minister for the children’s Christmas concert do none of the traditional songs. EVerything was done with guitar and electric keyboard and this was all to bring it up to speed for the kids. Guess what? The kids hated it, as I spoke with some of the parents who related it to me. They wanted the traditional Christmas songs and the organ (just a better organist - the last one was pretty bad). But there were those adults in the 50+ range and pastor’s entourage from other parishes who enjoyed it. As one of those older parishioners once said approviingly, he was going to make it rock like a Baptist church.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The sad thing is, having worked in parishes as a musician and as a music teacher, priests and/or pastors encouraged this with their music ministers. Those who wanted to truly be a “guardian of the arts and music” had their voices stifled. They either left or were broken down. I know in my experience as a music teacher at a Catholic school, the new pastor there did not want me to teach anything “old” to the children. This was the same pastor who made me play the tambourine to “The King of Glory” and destroyed any tradition that this ethnically German parish had. I was only a couple years out of college, so I didn’t have the guts to say anything, but did choose to resign a few months later. I later found that he made the new litirgical minister for the children’s Christmas concert do none of the traditional songs. EVerything was done with guitar and electric keyboard and this was all to bring it up to speed for the kids. Guess what? The kids hated it, as I spoke with some of the parents who related it to me. They wanted the traditional Christmas songs and the organ (just a better organist - the last one was pretty bad). But there were those adults in the 50+ range and pastor’s entourage from other parishes who enjoyed it. As one of those older parishioners once said approviingly, he was going to make it rock like a Baptist church.

Speaking of children’s choirs at Christmas…

At my parish, for the Christmas Vigil Mass, they have a children’s choir. Now a children’s choir can be a beautiful thing, but not at our parish. Those in charge of it (not our choir director - he’s just forced to deal with it) only give the children maybe 2-3 one hour lessons at most. That is most definitely not enough, especially for children. Their lack of preparation is apparent, as it becomes a real distraction in the Mass. It is absolutely repulsive to listen to - everyone’s out of pitch and harmony with each other. Of course, the parents are just tickled to have their kid performing, no matter how awful they may be (that’s what school shows are for, not the Holy Mass).

Lesson is, if children are going to sing in a choir, practice, practice, practice – even more so than adults require.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Last week, our choir sang Ippolitov’s (spell?) “Bless the Lord, O My Soul”. It was absolutely beautiful and spiritually uplifting, filling the Cathedral with a transcendant form of prayer. Had the director decided to go with the status quo and only do hymns from the last 40 years or last 200-300 years, in fact, we would have never been privilaged to hear a piece of heaven and bring us to a higher realm. I would have never received that by singing a hymn. I like many hymns, but it just doesn’t cut it sometimes

Indeed, indeed. One of my choir’s favorite motets and mine too. St. Augustine said he who sings, prays twice. When I sing something like this motet, I am transformed with my brothers and sisters in the choir as we become one in offering our singing as praise and prayer. You can feel it when it happens - it is transcendental and is that not what the spirit of sacred music should be?

 

[VociMike]

Hello,

I’d love to do a survey on this. I would wager that the most resistance would be from the 40+ crowd, not the younger churchgoers, who seem to be embracing the traditional forms of Catholic expression that existed prior to Vatican II.

One small Catholic university did a poll and of the student respondents 164 wanted Gregorian chant at Mass, 18 didn’t. That’s 90% for, 10% against. Considering that it’s hard to get 90% of a group to even agree that the sky is blue, those numbers are staggering.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

One small Catholic university did a poll and of the student respondents 164 wanted Gregorian chant at Mass, 18 didn’t. That’s 90% for, 10% against. Considering that it’s hard to get 90% of a group to even agree that the sky is blue, those numbers are staggering.

That’s the general feeling I get from the various surveys that come out from time to time. It seems that there is a great desire for the traditional Latin Rite Catholic expressions in the younger churchgoers. The desire starts to taper starting at age 30 and the decline picks up in the late 30’s early 40’s to a low level of desire among the 45-60 year olds and then a gradual increase in desire from 60+.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello,

I’d love to do a survey on this. I would wager that the most resistance would be from the 40+ crowd, not the younger churchgoers, who seem to be embracing the traditional forms of Catholic expression that existed prior to Vatican II.

You’d lose the wager.

Knowing my parish, as I do, especially because its a small parish of 450 families, of which, less than half actually participate on a regular basis and because I also taught high-school Confirmation Classes and led the music ministry at one of the Masses, I can, I can safely say, that people under 40, who would not understand, nor have the willingness in putting together a music ministry of Gregorian chant, or old traditional Catholic hymns. In fact, my bet would be they’d reject such a type of Mass.

The fact is, there is a Benedictine monastery, about 20 minutes away from my parish. The nuns and monks sing in Gregorian Chant at the Mass, which has all the responses in Latin. The lay people who attend Masses there, are all over 50. My 30 year old daughter came with us one time and although she thought it was beautiful, had no desire to attend again because she didn’t understand the words. I have only seen one family, where the parents were under 40, attend this Mass, but the woman is related to one of the nuns.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

One small Catholic university did a poll and of the student respondents 164 wanted Gregorian chant at Mass, 18 didn’t. That’s 90% for, 10% against. Considering that it’s hard to get 90% of a group to even agree that the sky is blue, those numbers are staggering.

What small Catholic University was it, if I may ask?

Jim

 

[VociMike]

What small Catholic University was it, if I may ask?

Jim

Ave Maria University. There’s a fascinating (and disheartening) battle going on there over music and liturgy. Students, faculty and staff report that the president, who is 70 years old and worked at Steubenville, is pushing “praise and worship” very hard, and doing his best to marginalize Latin (NO or EF) and chant, not to mention communion rails. But the students aren’t terribly interested in P&W. The same survey I quoted also showed only 33% wanted “praise and worship / contemporary” music, with 67% not wanting it. Furthermore, that was the lowest “want it” total of any of the music types on the list.

BTW, the president of the university told the students nothing would change as a result of their survey.

 

[Brendan]

We’ll have to wait and see if the Monsignor’s advice becomes a mandate.

I can’t imagine my little parish ever changing over to Gregorian Chant. I feel safe in saying that majority of the people under 50 years of age, have a clue about what Gregorian Chant is, nor would they have an interest in learning it. Such being the case, if Gregorian chant were the mandate, the parish would probably cease to exist. Then, the people would have no Mass at all to attend, never mind a Mass with traditional Music. This probably would please fundamentalist.

Jim

So, in other words, your fellow parishiners care more for Marty Haugen than they do the Eucharist?

How could it be that I’ve suffered through bad music in Church, strictly because it was the Mass and I would recieve the Eucharist, but somehow your fellow parishinoers wouldn’t be willing to ‘suffer’ through a chanted “Sanctus” and “Panis Angelicus” for the the sake of the Eucharist.

You should get right to work on educating them Jim. let them know where their priorities should really be.

 

[Sarabande]

My parish took a liturgical music survey a few years ago regarding the music. The music was pretty bad for a while from what I heard as I usually attend mass at our diocese Cathedral and rarely do mass in our parish unless I’m cantoring. The parish really had their say about it, including us. So, they came up with a decent compromise. It seems that the director now tries to arrange two “traditional” and two more “modern” hymns for each mass. They have one folk mass a month which is early in the morning and a teen mass on Sunday evenings. People were complaining a lot about too much modern music.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So, in other words, your fellow parishiners care more for Marty Haugen than they do the Eucharist?

Huh? How did you come up with this nonsense?

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Brendan

So, in other words, your fellow parishiners care more for Marty Haugen than they do the Eucharist?

Silly notion, don’t misunderstand what I said. It would cease to exist because we don’t have the numbers to sustain what a transition to Gregorian Chant would require. Such a transistion requires people with knowledge of the form of music. It doesn’t exist among the young in this little parish, and the older folks, are burning out running things as they are.

Jim

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

OCP is spreading its tentacles in England and Australia. This should help explain why the music in these countries is going bad.

I was terribly disappointed when I visited Ireland about fifteen years ago and found in every church I visited, from Dublin to Tralee, nothing but pre-printed handouts from OCP that had all the hymns (theirs, of course) arranged for use as a program. There goes hundreds of years of beautiful Irish hymnody, flushed into the Willamette River.

OCP is also pushing its Spanish music repertoire, which, unfortunately includes references to Liberation Theology (a heresy condemned by both Pope John Paul II and then-Cardinal Ratzinger).

OCP has always shown favoritism to its select group of American and European “composers.” Many of them are priests or religious who have left their vocations for a lucrative career in “music.” There are many beautiful and theologically-sound hymns sung in churches in Mexico (often with organs!) and other Spanish-speaking countries that never made it into that horrific book, “Flor y Canto,” while the majority of its hymns were written by the late Spanish priest, Fr. Cesario Gabarain. If you think that their translations of Mass parts into English is bad, their Spanish versions are worse – particularly what they pass off for Glorias.

 

[drafdog]

Can someone provide a list of commissions for liturgical music that have been initiated by Monsignor Valentin and/or the Vatican Liturgical Commission? I would be interested in knowing what composers have received commissions to produce music for what liturgical events and how much was paid for the music. I am also interested in a breakdown by language of the Vatican’s current commissions for liturgical music, hymns, etc.

Matthew

 

[strngrnrth]

I was terribly disappointed when I visited Ireland about fifteen years ago and found in every church I visited, from Dublin to Tralee, nothing but pre-printed handouts from OCP that had all the hymns (theirs, of course) arranged for use as a program. There goes hundreds of years of beautiful Irish hymnody, flushed into the Willamette River. OCP has always shown favoritism to its select group of American and European “composers.” Many of them are priests or religious who have left their vocations for a lucrative career in “music.” There are many beautiful and theologically-sound hymns sung in churches in Mexico (often with organs!) and other Spanish-speaking countries that never made it into that horrific book, “Flor y Canto,” while the majority of its hymns were written by the late Spanish priest, Fr. Cesario Gabarain. If you think that their translations of Mass parts into English is bad, their Spanish versions are worse – particularly what they pass off for Glorias.

I think you lost me. What would the WIllamette be doing running through Dublin and Tralee? Or are you saying OCP did the flushing?

 

[Brendan]

Brendan

Silly notion, don’t misunderstand what I said. It would cease to exist because we don’t have the numbers to sustain what a transition to Gregorian Chant would require. Such a transistion requires people with knowledge of the form of music. It doesn’t exist among the young in this little parish, and the older folks, are burning out running things as they are.

Jim

But my point still stands, at least some of your fellow parishoners would leave the Eucharist rather than use traditional hymns.

Otherwise, there would be no change in the numbers at all, correct?

That should a BIG problem, and you’re pretty knowledgeable on the Eucharist, so start some catechisis.

 

[peary]

Before Vatican II, the choir sang, the people sat silently in the pews.

For people to sing, they had to be able to sing hymns that they could sing, without having classical training in music, Also, composers began writing songs that the average Catholic could relate to spiritually. That was the basis for Vatican II, getting people more involved in the Mass, both physically and spiritually.

Its too bad, some are unable to relate to anything outside of the TLM.

That is just horsepuckey!! Since when did people sit silently in the pews prior to Vatican II while the choir did all the work? Not in the churches I attended, believe me! I honestly do not think you are aware of all the personal devotions present within the Church and also the songs which Catholics KNEW, BOTH in LATIN AND ENGLISH prior to Vatican II. I was there. I REMEMBER!
The St. Basil Catholic Hymnal was quite popular, with hymns in both English and Latin. People were able to sing BOTH. The same with the St. Joseph Hymnal. There was also the St. Gregory Hymnal. ALL contained both Latin and English. How I remember people en masse singing Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia IN LATIN!
The people were definitely “dumbed down” after Vatican II with regard to singing. True Catholic traditional hymns are all but forgotten and were thrown out for contemporary garbage. But to say that people just sat in the pews and were silent and did not sing, that is about as inaccurate as one can get.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That is just horsepuckey!! Since when did people sit silently in the pews prior to Vatican II while the choir did all the work? Not in the churches I attended, believe me! I honestly do not think you are aware of all the personal devotions present within the Church and also the songs which Catholics KNEW, BOTH in LATIN AND ENGLISH prior to Vatican II. I was there. I REMEMBER!
The St. Basil Catholic Hymnal was quite popular, with hymns in both English and Latin. People were able to sing BOTH. The same with the St. Joseph Hymnal. There was also the St. Gregory Hymnal. ALL contained both Latin and English. How I remember people en masse singing Tantum Ergo and O Salutaris Hostia IN LATIN!
The people were definitely “dumbed down” after Vatican II with regard to singing. True Catholic traditional hymns are all but forgotten and were thrown out for contemporary garbage. But to say that people just sat in the pews and were silent and did not sing, that is about as inaccurate as one can get.

This was not the norm for Catholics. If it was as wonderful as you think, Vatican II would never have been called for, it wouldn’t have been needed.

However, the contrary is the case. Catholics were out of touch with the Mass. The priest, altar boys and choir, participated. The people did as I said, sat and prayed. Sure, they stood, knelt and sat when they were suppose to. However, if there wasn’t some one in the pew, who knew better, they for the most part, would be clueless.

I grew up in pre-Vatican II. I attended two different parishes and nothing was different. Oh sure, there were the few like my uncle, who once attended seminary, who was more in tune with the Mass, but the majority attended purely out of obligation and were clueless as to what was really taking place.

Heck, when my mother grew up, the Church told her parents that dancing would lead people to hell. To this day, my mother tells me about the poster that was put up in the back of the Church, with people dancing their way down Dante’s rings of hell.

Again, if things were so wonderful in Pre-Vatican II, the holy Father, Pope John XXIII would never have called the council. However, the Church was in crisis.

Jim

 

[VociMike]

Again, if things were so wonderful in Pre-Vatican II, the holy Father, Pope John XXIII would never have called the council. However, the Church was in crisis.

In crisis?! That’s ridiculous.