How far will De- Latinizion go? (for Maronites especially)

[Addai]

I’m really especially interested in this question in relationship to the Maronites, but for broader appeal and education other EC folks can address this according to their prospective Churches.

With the Maronites I know they are interested in rediscovering and restoring many lost elements of their original liturgy, their use of iconography etc. I’m all for that. But reading “Captivated By Your Teaching” I can see some positive things that came with the exposure of the RC. I can also see some aspects of authentic tradition that I’m relieved aren’t widely practiced. “The Forbidden Foods” (Jewish dietary laws) is probably the best example of that.

My question to the Maronites is how far do you expect to go with deLatinization? Does that extend to other areas like getting rid of the organ, rosary, indulgences, philioque, making everyone follow the stricter original fasting rules etc.

 

[twf]

All Rites have developed over time. All Rites have borrowed or adopted elements from other Rites. I think it’s silly to suggest that there is a “pure” Maronite Rite. Perhaps we should all go back to the practices of the first century .

 

[Ungcsertez]

I’m really especially interested in this question in relationship to the Maronites, but for broader appeal and education other EC folks can address this according to their prospective Churches.

With the Maronites I know they are interested in rediscovering and restoring many lost elements of their original liturgy, their use of iconography etc. I’m all for that. But reading “Captivated By Your Teaching” I can see some positive things that came with the exposure of the RC. I can also see some aspects of authentic tradition that I’m relieved aren’t widely practiced. “The Forbidden Foods” (Jewish dietary laws) is probably the best example of that.

My question to the Maronites is how far do you expect to go with deLatinization? Does that extend to other areas like getting rid of the organ, rosary, indulgences, philioque, making everyone follow the stricter original fasting rules etc.

All the way, get rid of any non Eastern organic tradition, as was directed by Pope JPII.

U-C

 

[JMJ_coder]

All the way, get rid of any non Eastern organic tradition, as was directed by Pope JPII.

U-C

Are all supposed “latinizations” non-organic?

 

[malphono]

…My question to the Maronites is how far do you expect to go with deLatinization? Does that extend

to other areas like getting rid of the organ, rosary, indulgences, philioque, making everyone follow the stricter original

fasting rules etc.

The question of “latinization” among the Maronites is somewhat of a sore subject. I could go on for days about this, but I will limit myself to a few brief remarks here.

I. extra-liturgical practices:

(1) As I commented in a previous thread, while there is often an organ, or a harmonium, or (more recently) an electronic keyboard in Maronite churches, it’s usually played somewhat sparingly. Such things as “organ solos” are a little unusual in a Maronite church, (the exception being if (a) there is a grand organ in the first place (very rare) and/or (b) the organist is filling time with Bach or something). But a keyboard instrument is not universal. In certain places, instruments more traditional to the Middle East are often used, which is equally untraditional from a liturgical standpoint. In any case, whether a western keyboard instrument or 'oud & nye and/or electronic keyboard (played the Middle Eastern way) is used, it’s more for pitch and “background” than anything else.

(2) the Rosary is a done deal. It’s considered universal in the first place, and would never be purged. The public outcry would be far too great.

(3) The filioque is again a done deal, mainly because it’s been “on the books” (more like “in the books”) for so long now. Should it be there? IMO, no. Will it stay there? Most likely, yes. It’s very doubtful that more than a very small handful of Maronite bishops would argue the point.

(4) The “old” fasting rules (as reiterated by the Synod of Mt Lebanon) remain today as an (encouraged but non-obligatory) option. Quite some people actually still do follow them as best they can. Will the “old rules” be restored? No. They were only recently officially modified by the Synod.

(5) It’s highly unlikely that Benediction, the Way of the Cross, etc. will be dispensed with. These practices have, over the years, been woven into the Maronite fabric, and as with the Rosary, their elimination would face a loud public outcry. My position on the
Way of the Cross is that it’s a supplementary practice that was adapted to Maronite use (i.e., it’s not the exact same form or text as the Latin Rite original), and is actually a rather Eastern-type of practice in the first place. I would leave it alone. Benediction is quite another matter, although it too is an adaptation (rather than a translation) of the Latin Rite original. My opinion doesn’t matter since it will remain in place.

The bulk of the above are, I believe, also common to the Chaldeans.

II) Matters liturgical are an issue that is very dear to me, and I had thought about expounding at some length. And then I thought better of it. Why bother? So again, I’ll be uncharacteristically (for me) brief:

I’ll break this into two major points: what I will call “externals” and what I will call “text & rubrics”.

(a) in the “externals” department, you’re correct, there has been some success in de-latinizing some things. For example, two that stand out are:
(1) the use of Syriac vestments has been reintroduced, (of course with, Novus Ordo-inspired “adjustments” that few are aware of)
(2) Icons (mainly, but unfortunately not exclusively) in the Syriac style have regained their rightful place.

On the other hand, there are things that have been totally ignored, mainly because they are part of the Novus Ordo-inspired
Neo-Latinizization. Two examples are:
(1) the matter of the use (or at least the option to use) the Sanctuary curtain
(2) restoration of the requirement of ad orientem celebration of the Quorbono

(b) in the “text and rubrics” department, the “Novus Ordo inspired Neo-Latinization” school is in power among the bishops, and that is exactly what is going on. That school is rather like a bulldozer that steamrolls ahead with its Novus Ordo-inspired agenda (in the past few yeas I have come to hate that word, but it fits very well here). What I will call the “traditional school” is thwarted at every turn. That’s the extent of what I will say at the present time.

 

[JMJ_coder]

(5) It’s highly unlikely that Benediction, the Way of the Cross, etc. will be dispensed with. These practices have, over the years, been woven into the Maronite fabric, and as with the Rosary, their elimination would face a loud public outcry. My position on the
Way of the Cross is that it’s a supplementary practice that was adapted to Maronite use (i.e., it’s not the exact same form or text as the Latin Rite original), and is actually a rather Eastern-type of practice in the first place. I would leave it alone. Benediction is quite another matter, although it too is an adaptation (rather than a translation) of the Latin Rite original. My opinion doesn’t matter since it will remain in place.

Didn’t the two US Bishops come out a few years ago and say that Stations of the Cross should not be done during Lent and instead do the traditional Maronite devotions (such as Benediction of the Cross – I think that’s what was done instead)?

 

[JMJ_coder]

(3) The filioque is again a done deal, mainly because it’s been “on the books” (more like “in the books”) for so long now. Should it be there? IMO, no. Will it stay there? Most likely, yes. It’s very doubtful that more than a very small handful of Maronite bishops would argue the point.

From my reading of the “Father as Source of the Whole Trinity”, it does seem that the Filioque is more in line with Oriental theology than it is with Eastern theology.

 

[Harpazo]

All the way, get rid of any non Eastern organic tradition, as was directed by Pope JPII.

U-C

Shlom lokh

As one who is about to begin a canonical transfer and discerning a vocation for the Maronites, I agree completely. I would love to see the Maronites:

1. 
   *]married presbyterate.
   *]ability of the Maronite Patriarch to appoint his own bishops throughout the entire Maronite Church.
   *]commune infants.
   *]on a wide scale re-embrace the Divine Office before or after Divine Liturgy as opposed to the Rosary.
   *]Use leavened bread.
   *]Altar curtain.
   *]bearded clergy? (wishful thinking, I know)
   *]Ad orientem Divine Liturgy.
   *]use Syriac vestments.
   *]get rid of kneelers.
   *]re-introduce the Bema.
   *]get rid of organs, guitars and other Latin instruments imposed
   *]return to using traditional and authentic Maronite hymns instead of Latin ones.
   *]change the responses in the DL from “and also with you” to “and with your spirit.”
   *]get rid of the Filioque.
   *]get rid of ashes on the first day of Great Lent.
   *]get rid of statues and re-embrace Icons.
   
   That’s all I could think of at the moment. The Maronites could easily look to the Syriac Orthodox for the return to other traditions and Liturgical matters.
   
   It will take a while, and we will need an un-Latinized Patriarch as well. The Maronite clergy also need to learn their authentic traditions and strive to return their parishes to them.
   
   Alloho minokhoun,
   Andrew

 

[Abbendis]

Are all supposed “latinizations” non-organic?

exactly, I like my rosaries.

 

[malphono]

Didn’t the two US Bishops come out a few years ago and say that Stations of the Cross should not be done during Lent and instead do the traditional Maronite devotions (such as Benediction of the Cross – I think that’s what was done instead)?

Yes and no. The “lapse” as I will call it in the Way of the Cross was done during the tenure of the previous bishop of the Eparchy of St Maron. (Guess which “school?”) The present Eparch has restored the practice. I believe that it has also been restored in the Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon. To my knowledge, it has continued in the Patriarchal Territories and other Eparchies without interruption.

While I have no problem with it per-se, let me add that, the “Benediction of the Cross” is not exactly a “traditional” Maronite practice either. It’s based on what I think is a Sicilian devotion, and is just as “Maronite” as the Way of the Cross.

 

[malphono]

From my reading of the “Father as Source of the Whole Trinity”, it does seem that the Filioque is more in line with Oriental theology than it is with Eastern theology.

I don’t argue that. Nor do I argue that that was the intent of Nicea. What I do argue is the adjustment of the text of Nicea. To me, it was unnecessary and so I would prefer to return to the original. That’s also the position of the “handful of bishops” I mentioned.

 

[malphono]

Shlom lokh

As one who is about to begin a canonical transfer and discerning a vocation for the Maronites, I agree completely. I would love to see the Maronites:

married presbyterate.

This is a fact in the Patriarchal Territories and else where in the East. The restriction only concerns the “west.” But yes, I agree. The option should be restored.

ability of the Maronite Patriarch to appoint his own bishops throughout the entire Maronite Church.

Lovely idea but will never happen.

commune infants.

There are things to be said in favor of the present practice, but I don’t feel strongly enough either way to comment.

on a wide scale re-embrace the Divine Office before or after Divine Liturgy as opposed to the Rosary.

The Office was always done in monastic churches (and still is), but not so much in parish churches (even those in monastic charge). Traditionally, Safro would have been sung before the Qourbono. It was not usual for the faithful to attend thlothotsha’een which is the 3rd Hour, and would normally come after Qourbono. My objection is (a) I fear that doing this would result in something like what goes on at Greek Orthodox churches, where people walk in and out and mill around during Orthros and (b) it would place a perceived burden on the faithful .

Use leavened bread.

The use of unleavened bread is not necessarily a so-called “latinization.” There are two schools of thought on this, and I have no problem with using either leavened or unleavened bread.

Altar curtain.

Lovely idea, but not going to happen due mainly to the Novus Ordo inspired Neo-Latinization liturgical school that is in power. See my previous post.

bearded clergy? (wishful thinking, I know)

Since when was there ever a restriction on facial hair? I would absolutely oppose a requirement for a beard. Far too “Muscovite” for my taste.

Ad orientem Divine Liturgy.

Again, a lovely idea. It is an official option (at least it is outside the US) but only an option and that is thanks to the Novus Ordo inspired Neo-Latinization liturgical school that is in power.

use Syriac vestments.

current practice.

get rid of kneelers.

Actually, they come in handy on Pentecost.

re-introduce the Bema.

I personally know the proponents of that idea, and will not even discuss the issue.

get rid of organs, guitars and other Latin instruments imposed

see my previous post

return to using traditional and authentic Maronite hymns instead of Latin ones.

what “latin hymns?”

change the responses in the DL from “and also with you” to “and with your spirit.”

In Syriac (and in Arabic) it is. I do not know what is done in Portuguese or Spanish, but I think it’s also correct in French. It will be corrected in English once the NCCB finally releases its texts.

get rid of the Filioque.

Agreed, but it’s really quite harmless. See my previous post

get rid of ashes on the first day of Great Lent.

Here I totally disagree. There is ample Old Testament support for the practice.

get rid of statues and re-embrace Icons.

No argument.

That’s all I could think of at the moment. The Maronites could easily look to the Syriac Orthodox for the return to other traditions and Liturgical matters.

Yes, but bear in mind that there are differences.

It will take a while, and we will need an un-Latinized Patriarch as well.

Yes, but the prospects of that are somewhat slim. At least they appear so at the moment. As well, bear in mind that it is a Synodal Church and thus the Patriarch does not have dictatorial powers. The Novus Ordo-inspired school of Neo-Latinization is very firmly entrenched.

The Maronite clergy also need to learn their authentic traditions and strive to return their parishes to them.

Again, yes, but one has to ensure that it is the authentic tradition and not “tradition” as interpreted by certain US-born clergy who will forever remain nameless on this forum.

 

[JMJ_coder]

*]get rid of organs, guitars and other Latin instruments imposed

While your at it, could you get rid of guitars, harmonicas, drums, etc., etc. from the Latin Church as well.

*]
get rid of kneelers.

Actually, they come in handy on Pentecost.

Funny story: many years ago my father went to the Pentecost Liturgy and at the end of it the Priest said, and now we’ll have the Rite of Genuflection. My father was standing next to an elderly man. Down they went “by the power of God, rise!” … down they went “by the power of God, rise!”. After about the third or fourth time the elderly man turned to my father and said "if we go down one more time it’s going to take the power of God to get me back up!

It will be corrected in English once the NCCB finally releases its texts.

From what I hear, next Advent!

 

[malphono]

From what I hear, next Advent!

Yes, if we’re lucky. Sad to say, the Maronite bishops in the US are unwilling to deviate from the USCCB, and of course the all-powerful ICEL. (I don’t know the position of the bishop in Australia. Nor am I familiar with the policy of the bishop in Canada, although there a good portion of the faithful are in Québec so it may be a lower priority for him.)

 

[JMJ_coder]

and of course the all-powerful ICEL.

But, from the few snippets I’ve seen of the new translations, ICEL seems to have gotten their act together.

 

[malphono]

But, from the few snippets I’ve seen of the new translations, ICEL seems to have gotten their act together.

It’s totally off topic, but yes, that is apparently true. But why? Methinks (well, meknows, to stretch the old usage a bit) PP Benedict XVI had a very strong hand in that. Left to their own devices, the ICEL would undoubtedly have continued to turn out the same trip they have these past 40 l-o-n-g years.

 

[Kielbasi]

My question to the Maronites is how far do you expect to go with deLatinization? Does that extend to other areas like getting rid of the organ, rosary, indulgences, philioque, making everyone follow the stricter original fasting rules etc.

I don’t think there would be any problems with Maronites- or other eastern churches- in their own traditional areas.

But with Maronites in the West, due to the influence of the predominate Latin rite and intermarriages between their members and Latin rite folk, it probably is an irresistable force to acclimate one’s self to the norms of a dominant culture.

 

[Formosus]

Malphono, the latin hymns Harp was talking about are sung at the Maronite church in Roanoke, VA. The choir there is too well entrenched for Abouna to remove them sadly, but they sing songs out of the infamous “Gather” Hymnal at times .

 

[Addai]

The question of “latinization” among the Maronites is somewhat of a sore subject. I could go on for days about this, but I will limit myself to a few brief remarks here.

I. extra-liturgical practices:

(1) As I commented in a previous thread, while there is often an organ, or a harmonium, or (more recently) an electronic keyboard in Maronite churches, it’s usually played somewhat sparingly. Such things as “organ solos” are a little unusual in a Maronite church, (the exception being if (a) there is a grand organ in the first place (very rare) and/or (b) the organist is filling time with Bach or something). But a keyboard instrument is not universal. In certain places, instruments more traditional to the Middle East are often used, which is equally untraditional from a liturgical standpoint. In any case, whether a western keyboard instrument or 'oud & nye and/or electronic keyboard (played the Middle Eastern way) is used, it’s more for pitch and “background” than anything else.

(2) the Rosary is a done deal. It’s considered universal in the first place, and would never be purged. The public outcry would be far too great.

(3) The filioque is again a done deal, mainly because it’s been “on the books” (more like “in the books”) for so long now. Should it be there? IMO, no. Will it stay there? Most likely, yes. It’s very doubtful that more than a very small handful of Maronite bishops would argue the point.

(4) The “old” fasting rules (as reiterated by the Synod of Mt Lebanon) remain today as an (encouraged but non-obligatory) option. Quite some people actually still do follow them as best they can. Will the “old rules” be restored? No. They were only recently officially modified by the Synod.

(5) It’s highly unlikely that Benediction, the Way of the Cross, etc. will be dispensed with. These practices have, over the years, been woven into the Maronite fabric, and as with the Rosary, their elimination would face a loud public outcry. My position on the
Way of the Cross is that it’s a supplementary practice that was adapted to Maronite use (i.e., it’s not the exact same form or text as the Latin Rite original), and is actually a rather Eastern-type of practice in the first place. I would leave it alone. Benediction is quite another matter, although it too is an adaptation (rather than a translation) of the Latin Rite original. My opinion doesn’t matter since it will remain in place.

The bulk of the above are, I believe, also common to the Chaldeans.

II) Matters liturgical are an issue that is very dear to me, and I had thought about expounding at some length. And then I thought better of it. Why bother? So again, I’ll be uncharacteristically (for me) brief:

I’ll break this into two major points: what I will call “externals” and what I will call “text & rubrics”.

(a) in the “externals” department, you’re correct, there has been some success in de-latinizing some things. For example, two that stand out are:
(1) the use of Syriac vestments has been reintroduced, (of course with, Novus Ordo-inspired “adjustments” that few are aware of)
(2) Icons (mainly, but unfortunately not exclusively) in the Syriac style have regained their rightful place.

On the other hand, there are things that have been totally ignored, mainly because they are part of the Novus Ordo-inspired
Neo-Latinizization. Two examples are:
(1) the matter of the use (or at least the option to use) the Sanctuary curtain
(2) restoration of the requirement of ad orientem celebration of the Quorbono

(b) in the “text and rubrics” department, the “Novus Ordo inspired Neo-Latinization” school is in power among the bishops, and that is exactly what is going on. That school is rather like a bulldozer that steamrolls ahead with its Novus Ordo-inspired agenda (in the past few yeas I have come to hate that word, but it fits very well here). What I will call the “traditional school” is thwarted at every turn. That’s the extent of what I will say at the present time.

On the Icons I thought you had reinvent the Maronite style since the original uniquely Maronite icongraphy has died out except for some old historical Syriac ones. (I heard they created a new style based on Coptic, Byzantine and old Syriac Iconography).

The Novus Ordo stuff I don’t get though, what the bishops are doing seems like its totally against what JP II asked the Church to do.

Thanks for the rest of the info!

 

[malphono]

Malphono, the latin hymns Harp was talking about are sung at the Maronite church in Roanoke, VA. The choir there is too well entrenched for Abouna to remove them sadly, but they sing songs out of the infamous “Gather” Hymnal at times .

Oh, how depressing. As far as I’m concerned those “hymnals” should be burned.

But I’m sure you see that therein lies yet another example of the Novus Ordo-inspired School of New-Latinization. Unfortunately, it’s endemic.