How God could create a being with free will?

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Apply this example to every action takes places in our life and see what would you conclude: all our actions are known by God and we have no feasible option to do otherwise since otherwise it contradict God omniscience.
This is the crux of your problem.

Look at it this way. Leave God completely out of it. Consider time itself and how time influences choices. A choice is made in time. After that moment passes, the choice has been “fixed” or determined. Does that mean simply because the moment that the decision was made has passed into the past and thus the choice “determined” and could not be changed, that the choice was, therefore, determined beforehand? No it doesn’t.

Now merely because God, as observer sees the choice made and knows what it was does not, in the least, determine the choice. There is no causal connection between God knowing the outcome and the outcome being fixed. What “fixed” the outcome was the choice being made in time. The choice determined the outcome, any observation of the choice (either by God or any other subject such as human bystanders) has no effect of the outcome. The outcome is fixed by the choice being made in time, in the present instance by the person making that choice. The presence of any observers either in present time (other humans) or in eternity (God) does nothing in terms of determining or fixing the choice.

Your objection is still a case of the fallacy of retrospective determinism.
 
Bahman? Are you still active in this thread? If not I’m going to unsubscribe.
 
God’s knowledge does not determine the person’s choice, but vice versa. If the person chose Y, then God would have known this already, because he can see the future as clearly as the present.
Your statement means that God will not know the result of my decision in future and knows it at the same time. It doesn’t know it because the future didn’t arrive yet so the course of my decision is not take place yet. It does know since you claim that God is aware of future (omniscience). In my thought experiment I only use omniscience of God as you believe and show that the idea leads to a contradiction in a situation. Conditioning the knowledge of God to our experiences contradict with the picture of God in timeless state.
God can distinguish between any two things that are not identical, since if there is a difference he could spot it easily with his omniscience. In this scenario, there is a difference between X and Y because they are just different choices. Thus, God can tell the difference.
Sure there is a difference between them. I don’t quite understand your point.
 
This is the crux of your problem.

Look at it this way. Leave God completely out of it. Consider time itself and how time influences choices. A choice is made in time. After that moment passes, the choice has been “fixed” or determined. Does that mean simply because the moment that the decision was made has passed into the past and thus the choice “determined” and could not be changed, that the choice was, therefore, determined beforehand? No it doesn’t.

Now merely because God, as observer sees the choice made and knows what it was does not, in the least, determine the choice. There is no causal connection between God knowing the outcome and the outcome being fixed. What “fixed” the outcome was the choice being made in time. The choice determined the outcome, any observation of the choice (either by God or any other subject such as human bystanders) has no effect of the outcome. The outcome is fixed by the choice being made in time, in the present instance by the person making that choice. The presence of any observers either in present time (other humans) or in eternity (God) does nothing in terms of determining or fixing the choice.

Your objection is still a case of the fallacy of retrospective determinism.
Conditioning God’s knowledge to our action violates the timeless state of God’s knowledge. I mean I didn’t decide about the course of action which will take place tomorrow as I don’t know what I am facing to. How God could know about my decision now? I believe that one cannot fuse two qualities one being in state of timeless and another in state of time. Please tell me how God which is state of timeless could send a message at time T1 and another one at time T2 to a same person (or vise versa). How possibly we could interact with such a God?
 
This is the crux of your problem.

Look at it this way. Leave God completely out of it. Consider time itself and how time influences choices. A choice is made in time. After that moment passes, the choice has been “fixed” or determined. Does that mean simply because the moment that the decision was made has passed into the past and thus the choice “determined” and could not be changed, that the choice was, therefore, determined beforehand? No it doesn’t.

Now merely because God, as observer sees the choice made and knows what it was does not, in the least, determine the choice. There is no causal connection between God knowing the outcome and the outcome being fixed. What “fixed” the outcome was the choice being made in time. The choice determined the outcome, any observation of the choice (either by God or any other subject such as human bystanders) has no effect of the outcome. The outcome is fixed by the choice being made in time, in the present instance by the person making that choice. The presence of any observers either in present time (other humans) or in eternity (God) does nothing in terms of determining or fixing the choice.

Your objection is still a case of the fallacy of retrospective determinism.
👍
Pellucid analysis!
 
Inexplicability does not imply non-existence.
Is it explicable from God point of view without creating any creature? If it is so then God could in principle know the outcome creature behaviour without creating the creature and as a result there was no reason for creation nor being in this stage of being suffering until end of time.
 
Nothing is inexplicable because there is nothing to explain!

If we choose to love ourselves instead of loving others we pay the price for being selfish. We can’t have our cake and eat it!
I am sorry but I cannot follow what you mean.
 
Conditioning God’s knowledge to our action violates the timeless state of God’s knowledge. I mean I didn’t decide about the course of action which will take place tomorrow as I don’t know what I am facing to. How God could know about my decision now? I believe that one cannot fuse two qualities one being in state of timeless and another in state of time. Please tell me how God which is state of timeless could send a message at time T1 and another one at time T2 to a same person (or vise versa). How possibly we could interact with such a God?
Eternity means essentially “unconstrained” by time. That means God is not caught inside time as it unfolds. There is no duration for God. Our tomorrow and yesterday are present to him as today is present to us, but much more so.

There is only one way for us to interact with God - in the present, here and now. This is where our temporal reality touches the eternal NOW where we “work out our salvation” and are prepared for eternal life. If you think about it, the present is all there is. Yesterday and tomorrow are, for us, illusions. The only reality available to us is the present moment.

The “how” God acts is not within our capacity to understand since our limitations prevent us from knowing that.

Being baffled by what we do not understand is not uncommon. I am trying to learn CSS coding for displaying various aspects of web pages. When I first began it all seemed so completely beyond comprehension - just complete jibberish. As I work through it little pieces begin to fit and the overall picture is beginning to make more sense. I understand why it works because my mind is capable of taking in the logical structure of the codes used and what results from them. My mind is capable of “getting it” because the logical structure of CSS was developed by minds very much like mine. The capacity to understand is there because the content matches or fits my capacity.

I am not about to assume that the logical structure and capacity of God’s mind is similar to my own. I have no reason to think that it must be. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that God could simply make many things comprehensible to me that I presently do not “get,” but he would have to begin where I am at in order for me to “stay with him.” With some things, however, I may just have to “trust” him because these things may be forever beyond possibility of my understanding.

That fact makes some people uncomfortable because they have a presumption of some kind of right to omniscience, when, in fact, we are owed nothing by God. A realistic assessment of our state is that we did nothing to merit existence. We exist due to nothing that we have done. God has made it possible for me to exist “as me” when I do not even have an inkling of what that even means or how that could even be possible. Who or what am I? is the most sublime question, yet completely ignored by most people.

You asked why God couldn’t simply determine the outcome of a person’s choices without making the person. It is difficult to comprehend how God could determine what I would do without me. Even his “mental act” of working out what I would do in all relevant circumstances would look very much like “me” actually doing them. The “I” that chooses the outcomes would be presumed in God’s working out the details. Would it be possible for God to determine what “I” would do in all circumstances without ME actually being present? I doubt that very much.

In addition, I am not merely a conceptual entity. I am a dynamic agent that becomes what I am as a result of the “playing out” of my relationship with the natural world, other agents and God himself. God constantly and dynamically provides grace and inspiration to assist in “forming” what I will become. How could the outcome of such a process simply be determined without the actual process of formation? The presumption would be that if God is active, through grace, in forming each person then the process of formation would be an indelible aspect of the outcome. There could be no “final me” without the involvement of God in the process.

If God involves himself to such an extent, then, presumably, this is not something he could carry out as a conceptual exercise in lieu of actually creating me. His extensive involvement means he has a vested interest in me as the determiner of my destiny, a destiny that could not be determined without my actual involvement.
 
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Bahman:
If it is so then God could in principle know the outcome creature behaviour without creating the creature and as a result there was no reason for creation nor being in this stage of being suffering until end of time.
He couldn’t know something was going to happen unless it was actually going to happen, otherwise he would be wrong.
 
If it is so then God could in principle know the outcome creature behaviour without creating the creature and as a result there was no reason for creation nor being in this stage of suffering until end of time.
So you believe that my statement is wrong and God could only know the fate of creation after creation of universe! I am very puzzled with using words before and after since that requires defining some kind of time. I mean there is state of being at which there is only God and there is a state of being at which there is God and creation. This means that one state of being should occur after other meaning that we have a sequence of states of being. This however and unfortunately put God in a picture which some sort of time is involved in it!?
 
So you believe that my statement is wrong and God could only know the fate of creation after creation of universe! I am very puzzled with using words before and after since that requires defining some kind of time. I mean there is state of being at which there is only God and there is a state of being at which there is God and creation. This means that one state of being should occur after other meaning that we have a sequence of states of being. This however and unfortunately put God in a picture which some sort of time is involved in it!?
If you see time as a linear progression that is followed from one end (beginning) to the other (ending) by anyone constrained to the line, then, yes it requires a before and after. The storyline in a book begins at the beginning and follows a sequence. Event B follows Event A in the narrative. However, as a reader outside of the book, you can flip through pages in any order you want going to page 3 after reading page 96. It is all, the whole sequence of events, in your hands for you to see as a whole in any order you wish. You are not constrained by the order contained in the narrative because the serial time in the narrative does not limit you. You are not “trapped” in the time sequence of the narrative.

Eternity does not mean one slice of time, it means all time, all places, all things, all in all. It is like taking that linear time line and “backing away” from it to reveal its place in an unlimited 3D environment (analogically speaking) instead of a point somewhere on a line between Point A and Point B. The one dimensional line of sequential time is a very tiny limited aspect of an unlimited reality, where all points are available to God in eternity.
 
I think a totally free will being cld not exist ,there wld always be one thing that he cld not freely decide,his own existence! ta-da…bill bradl [william]
 
I mean there is state of being at which there is only God and there is a state of being at which there is God and creation. This means that one state of being should occur after other meaning that we have a sequence of states of being. This however and unfortunately put God in a picture which some sort of time is involved in it!?
There is not a time where only God exists. The creation of time is not a temporal event.
 
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wbradl:
I think a totally free will being cld not exist ,there wld always be one thing that he cld not freely decide,his own existence! ta-da…bill bradl [william]
Free will is the ability to choose one’s actions. One’s existence is not one of one’s actions, since nothing creates itself.
 
If you see time as a linear progression that is followed from one end (beginning) to the other (ending) by anyone constrained to the line, then, yes it requires a before and after. The storyline in a book begins at the beginning and follows a sequence. Event B follows Event A in the narrative. However, as a reader outside of the book, you can flip through pages in any order you want going to page 3 after reading page 96. It is all, the whole sequence of events, in your hands for you to see as a whole in any order you wish. You are not constrained by the order contained in the narrative because the serial time in the narrative does not limit you. You are not “trapped” in the time sequence of the narrative.

Eternity does not mean one slice of time, it means all time, all places, all things, all in all. It is like taking that linear time line and “backing away” from it to reveal its place in an unlimited 3D environment (analogically speaking) instead of a point somewhere on a line between Point A and Point B. The one dimensional line of sequential time is a very tiny limited aspect of an unlimited reality, where all points are available to God in eternity.
I understand your point but the phrase “God, then God and creation” is logically wrong or either has go to temporal state of its own creation which is time otherwise the above sequence is wrong even if “then” is eternity.
 
There is not a time where only God exists. The creation of time is not a temporal event.
Do you mean that God and creation has been coexist by your first statement. Creation of any quality is temporal thing: God, then, God and time. One state is coming after other which means you have two state of being, changes and a temporal phenomena.,
 
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