How God could create a being with free will?

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I think a totally free will being cld not exist ,there wld always be one thing that he cld not freely decide,his own existence! ta-da…bill bradl [william]
There is no way to experience free will and the belief on it is quite personal. Disbelieving on free will however has a very serious impact on our social system speciality judiciary system. It could also lead to a very bad psychological state of feeling. Simply one turns to an agent how just observer thing and has no control on his/her behaviour at all.
 
Do you mean that God and creation has been coexist by your first statement. Creation of any quality is temporal thing:
Thats an assumption and an understandable one. I do not blame you for thinking that way because everything you experience is engulfed in temporality and so it seems only commonsense that cause and effect is a purely temporal activity. However, change cannot exist at all without the actualization of potential, and neither can change meaningfully exist apart from the objects that are changing. Neither can the existence of change be caused in an absolute sense by a cause that is itself caused to change; simply because potential cannot cause itself to exist.

The fact remains that Change - logically speaking - is the actualization of potential, the moving of an object from one state to a potential state, and is not a thing in and of itself. Thus in-order for change to exist in the first place it has to proceed from a point that is not itself subject to change; otherwise there is no rational explanation for how any potential is made actual. Before and after is a purely temporal concept; thus the creation of objects that change cannot rationally be considered a temporal event.

The timeless existence of God and the creation of the universe is a simultaneous act. There is no before the point of creation. God and the point of creation exists simultaneously.
 
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Bahman:
There is no way to experience free will and the belief on it is quite personal.
This is not true, you perceive free will through introspection, and that makes its existence undeniable.
 
I understand your point but the phrase “God, then God and creation” is logically wrong or either has go to temporal state of its own creation which is time otherwise the above sequence is wrong even if “then” is eternity.
I am not clear that this is implied.

A book can merely “exist” even though the story in the book has a beginning, middle and ending time sequence. For God, the universe merely exists in its entirety even though from within the space-time continuum we can identify the beginning (Big Bang event) and are living somewhere along the unfolding time sequence.
 
I was thinking about the free will and the creating and came out with the following argument which I would be happy to discuss it with you:
  1. A being with free will is free of any constraint including laws of nature.
  2. A being that is free of any constraint is undefinable since it is free of any law that define its action.
  3. A being which is undefinable could not exist or be created (unless if it God that is infinite and does not need a creator).
  4. A being with free will could not be created or exist.
If you examine yourself, you will find that you are free to do many things. I may choose to go to the supermarket right now or I may choose to go for a bike ride instead. I might choose to not go to work tomorrow. I could choose to sin right now and go look at some porn on the internet. On the other hand, I can choose to please God and keep His commandments and not look at any porn.
Though we have free will, that does not mean we are not subject to God, our creator.
 
The timeless existence of God and the creation of the universe is a simultaneous act. There is no before the point of creation. God and the point of creation exists simultaneously.
I understand your point but other points/problem arises assuming if your picture is correct.

This is first against the religious literature since they believe that there is a state that only God exist then followed with a state in which God create the universe. The main question is whether God could sustain itself in state of timeless without creating anything. Moreover, how we could prove that was God who created the creation if the act of existence of God and creation takes place at the same point.

In another hand how you could resolve this paradox: “God and creation only at time T1” and, “then”, “God and creation only at time T2”, in which the first one is in state of timeless and second one in state of time, at the same time we have God embedded in a temporal state.
 
If you examine yourself, you will find that you are free to do many things. I may choose to go to the supermarket right now or I may choose to go for a bike ride instead. I might choose to not go to work tomorrow. I could choose to sin right now and go look at some porn on the internet. On the other hand, I can choose to please God and keep His commandments and not look at any porn.
Though we have free will, that does not mean we are not subject to God, our creator.
I am aware of the process so call decision making. The question is whether the process of decision making is anomalous or not.
 
I am not clear that this is implied.

A book can merely “exist” even though the story in the book has a beginning, middle and ending time sequence. For God, the universe merely exists in its entirety even though from within the space-time continuum we can identify the beginning (Big Bang event) and are living somewhere along the unfolding time sequence.
It is implied since God is a part of this book since otherwise we were just embedded in state of time, have to write our own stories which is the result of our free will. This picture, a universe without God, if we forget the state of beginning is very simple to comprehend. The problem arises when you want to enter God in this picture, assuming that God is in state of timeless not only is state of creating creation but also in state afterwards. This picture becomes more disturbing when you want to add God omniscience (strong) to the picture which causes extra anomaly to the picture.

For now, do you agree that the following statement is paradoxical: “God, then, God and creation”.

Also please read the post #145.
 
The problem arises when you want to enter God in this picture, assuming that God is in state of timeless not only is state of creating creation but also in state afterwards…
For now, do you agree that the following statement is paradoxical: “God, then, God and creation”.

Also please read the post #145.
The problem is that your statement “God, then, God and creation,” only applies from the point of view of someone in the sequential time of creation. There is no “before” creation for God, there is merely creation as a contained, contingent act. The space-time continuum within creation includes “before” only to the point of the BIg Bang. There is NO “before” that because time begins there.

You are still trying to apply sequential time to God, that is why you keep running into the paradox. It is only a paradox for you. Creation exists. it has a beginning embedded into it. God is outside of time and has no before or after.
 
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Bahman:
It is implied since God is a part of this book since otherwise we were just embedded in state of time, have to write our own stories which is the result of our free will.
God is not a part of the book. The book represents time. Only we are within the book, and we do have to write our own actions into the story.
 
I was thinking about the free will and the creating and came out with the following argument which I would be happy to discuss it with you:
  1. A being with free will is free of any constraint including laws of nature.
  2. A being that is free of any constraint is undefinable since it is free of any law that define its action.
  3. A being which is undefinable could not exist or be created (unless if it God that is infinite and does not need a creator).
  4. A being with free will could not be created or exist.
Your argument is quite wrong because, obviously, God did create beings with a free will - angels and men. However, some of what you said above is incorrect.
  1. We are obviously not free from the constraints imposed by the laws of nature. If we violate a law of nature we will suffer.
  2. There is no created being that is free of the constraints of nature. Such a being is definable as a concept, but since it cannot exist in reality, it is a contradiction in terms. For example, a sphinx is definable as a concept, but does not exist and could not exist because it is a contradiction in terms. God does not create beings which are contradictory. And all the beings he creates follow the laws of nature or suffer the consequences.
  3. No matter what argument you propose, your conclusion is wrong, because God did create beings with a free will.
Linus2nd
 
We don’t need the free will to decide in a situation that our desires or logic has already defined the outcome. Our desires and logic would be force to drive us on the decided path.
This assumes a rational thinker.
 
Disbelieving on free will however has a very serious impact on our social system speciality judiciary system. It could also lead to a very bad psychological state of feeling. Simply one turns to an agent how just observer thing and has no control on his/her behaviour at all.
We already consider something like what you are suggesting, at least here in the US. It is known in most states as a “crime of passion.”
 
Linusthe2nd said:
1. We are obviously not free from the constraints imposed by the laws of nature. If we violate a law of nature we will suffer.
For example, a sphinx is definable as a concept, but does not exist and could not exist because it is a contradiction in terms. God does not create beings which are contradictory. And all the beings he creates follow the laws of nature or suffer the consequences.
  1. How is a sphinx a contradiction in terms?
  2. Wat do you mean by the red highlight?
 
  1. How is a sphinx a contradiction in terms?
  2. Wat do you mean by the red highlight?
  1. " In Greek tradition, it has the haunches of a lion, the wings of a great bird, and the face of a woman. She is mythicised as treacherous and merciless. " ( from Wikipedia ). A creature which is lion, bird, and human is a contradiction. It does not and cannot exist.
  2. If we do something against our nature, like drinking poison, we will suffer. We will harm ourselves.
Linus2nd
 
I understand your point but other points/problem arises assuming if your picture is correct

This is first against the religious literature since they believe that there is a state that only God exist then followed with a state in which God create the universe. .
Do Catholics believe that as a dogmatic teaching about the ontology of creation? I am not aware that this is what Catholics believe.
The main question is whether God could sustain itself in state of timeless without creating anything…
Is that the question? As such may be, it follows necessarily that whatever creates time is not itself “in time” and therefore it must be a timeless cause or creator.
Moreover, how we could prove that was God who created the creation if the act of existence of God and creation takes place at the same point…
I am not sure what you are getting at here? If change exists, then there has to be a cause of that change existing independently of the space-time continuum.
In another hand how you could resolve this paradox: “God and creation only at time T1” and, “then”, “God and creation only at time T2”, in which the first one is in state of timeless and second one in state of time, at the same time we have God embedded in a temporal state.
Well, firstly i don’t have to resolve any “parodox”, i need only show that a timeless creator is necessary for the creation of time.

Secondly, all of time is present to that which is not in time, necessarily. God, as relative to time, is timelessly present to all time; for a being that is transcendent of time is not bound by temporality. There is no change for God, and as such, from Gods perspective, the entirety of all change that will ever occur in the universe has always and timelessly existed as an extension of Gods creative and timeless will.
 
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Linusthe2nd:
  1. " In Greek tradition, it has the haunches of a lion, the wings of a great bird, and the face of a woman. She is mythicised as treacherous and merciless. " ( from Wikipedia ). A creature which is lion, bird, and human is a contradiction. It does not and cannot exist.
  2. If we do something against our nature, like drinking poison, we will suffer. We will harm ourselves.
A sphinx isn’t “lion, bird, and human”, it just has parts of all three. That’s not a contradiction.
Also, drinking poision doesn’t break the laws of nature. By laws of nature I thought you meant rules of physics.
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Bahman:
I cannot understand who we could perceive free will. Could you please elaborate on this please?
If you don’t know what introspection is, it’s your consciousness of yourself (wikipedia could have helped you with that). Introspection is infallible.
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Bahman:
In another hand how you could resolve this paradox: “God and creation only at time T1” and, “then”, “God and creation only at time T2”, in which the first one is in state of timeless and second one in state of time, at the same time we have God embedded in a temporal state.
You need to drop this idea of “T1, then T2”. God is in eternity rather than time, and he created time from eternity. The creation of time is not in a temporal sequence.
 
Your argument is quite wrong because, obviously, God did create beings with a free will - angels and men. However, some of what you said above is incorrect.
  1. We are obviously not free from the constraints imposed by the laws of nature. If we violate a law of nature we will suffer.
  2. There is no created being that is free of the constraints of nature. Such a being is definable as a concept, but since it cannot exist in reality, it is a contradiction in terms. For example, a sphinx is definable as a concept, but does not exist and could not exist because it is a contradiction in terms. God does not create beings which are contradictory. And all the beings he creates follow the laws of nature or suffer the consequences.
  3. No matter what argument you propose, your conclusion is wrong, because God did create beings with a free will.
Linus2nd
First, I corrected my argument slightly to show what do I meant. Second, I meant the act of decision making which is a unpredictable act has to be free of law of physics since law of physics are deterministic. We can continue from here if you agree with my current statement.
 
Do Catholics believe that as a dogmatic teaching about the ontology of creation? I am not aware that this is what Catholics believe.

Is that the question? As such may be, it follows necessarily that whatever creates time is not itself “in time” and therefore it must be a timeless cause or creator.

I am not sure what you are getting at here? If change exists, then there has to be a cause of that change existing independently of the space-time continuum.

Well, firstly i don’t have to resolve any “parodox”, i need only show that a timeless creator is necessary for the creation of time.

Secondly, all of time is present to that which is not in time, necessarily. God, as relative to time, is timelessly present to all time; for a being that is transcendent of time is not bound by temporality. There is no change for God, and as such, from Gods perspective, the entirety of all change that will ever occur in the universe has always and timelessly existed as an extension of Gods creative and timeless will.
First, how you could show a timeless creator is needed for a creating time.

Second, do you agree that my statement is a paradox.
 
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