How great thou art

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GiftofMercy said:
It is the definition of liturgical vs devotional that I refer to. Liturgical music is for all the community and its lyrics reflect a ‘for all’ . ‘We’ , ‘our’, or of God speaking to us.

Devotional music , for example ‘Amazing Grace’ discusses the individual. It has words like ‘I’ and ‘my’ in the lyrics. These are still beautiful songs, but not suitable as hymns during the Mass. They are great for devotional practices. 🙂
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So the Church is wrong to allow this in Catholic hymnals?

It is in every Catholic hymnal in our city.

And as far as I know, there are no divisions in the hymnal for “liturgical music” and “devotional music.”

I think that even though we are gathered as a body for Mass, we are still individuals. We receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament as individuals–I’ve seen articles about why corporate reception of Holy Communion is not done, as it is in many Protestant (Evangelical) churches. Each of us receives Jesus by ourselves–even married couples are not allowed to receive Holy Communion at the same time.

And although all of us follow the Gospel readings, either listening or following along in the Missal or in our Bibles, we all get something individual and different out of the readings, as the Holy Spirit teaches us. The priest’s homily gives us his perspective on the readings, but even so, we all get something different out of the homily and bring home something that the Holy Spirit has prompted us to do or think or thank God for.

Even the various responses, although they are the same for everyone, will be “customized” by the Holy Spirit so that each attendee will learn what God needs them to learn at that time.

And I daresay that even when “liturgical hymns” are selected, everyone in the congregation gets something different out the hymn, and that “something” is highly individual. One person may receive confirmation of a call to religious life, while another person may receive a prompting to start attending Alcoholic Anonymous!

So it only makes sense that “devotional” hymns, as you label them, are included in the Mass, unless of course, the only parishes that do this are parishes in cities that I have visited, and all the “compliant, aware” parishes never sing “devotional” hymns.

And frankly, when hymns use “I” instead of “we”, I don’t think of me, myself, and I only during the singing of the hymn. I am beautifully reminded that I am an individual, but I am also a member of the Universal Church, the Church of the ages.

And if you know the wonderful story behind How Great Thou Art, you know that all over the world for many decades, Christians and non-Christians alike have come to a closer relationship with God through the singing of this song that gives glory and honor to God, Our Creator and Lord of the Universe. Even the King of Sweden had to change his edict banning the song from liturgical worship (he thought it was too frivolous for the State Church!) because when he heard it sung well, he changed his mind about the hymn. I hope you do, too.
 
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The real issue, for me, about “How Great Thiu Art” at Holy Mass is whether the Music Ministers follows the music:
“Then sings my soul, my savior God to thee…”
Or the way Elvis Presley and Tammy Wynette recorded it:
“Then sings my soooouuul, my Savior God to thee…”
 
I have looked through Youtube for a version where a parish sings to a pipe organ in the traditional way and can’t find one so far. All are performance pieces or with a brass band or someone playing at home.
 
It is a great song.
I associate it with my grandfather. The song was song during his funeral. It was a very moving moment. It brought tears of sorry and of joy.
 
GiftofMercy said:
It is the definition of liturgical vs devotional that I refer to. Liturgical music is for all the community and its lyrics reflect a ‘for all’ . ‘We’ , ‘our’, or of God speaking to us.
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This is interesting.

Was this the reasoning that led to the Nicene Creed being translated “We believe” rather than “I believe” until recently?
 
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Peeps said:
I think that even though we are gathered as a body for Mass, we are still individuals. We receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament as individuals–I’ve seen articles about why corporate reception of Holy Communion is not done, as it is in many Protestant (Evangelical) churches . Each of us receives Jesus by ourselves–even married couples are not allowed to receive Holy Communion at the same time.
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What is “corporate reception of Holy Communion”? Everyone taking their own portion (thimbleful of wine and little oyster cracker-like piece of bread) and consuming them in unison?

Obviously, this would not be a Catholic “thing”.
Peeps said:
And frankly, when hymns use “I” instead of “we”, I don’t think of me, myself, and I only during the singing of the hymn. I am beautifully reminded that I am an individual, but I am also a member of the Universal Church, the Church of the ages.
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PBE Christianity (Protestant/Baptist/Evangelical) tends to be “all about the I” and not so much about the “we”. This is drastically different from Catholicism. A sterling example would be the southern gospel hymn “I’m Moving Up To Gloryland”.

And another thing that has to be considered is the difficulties some more conservative and traditionalist Catholics could have with acknowledging that PBE hymns can be beautiful, majestic, and can give great glory to Almighty God. It would be kind of like asking a John Bircher to acknowledge that the Soviet national anthem is a cool piece of music (which it is, by the way), or playing “Hatikvah” for an anti-Semite.

 
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GiftofMercy said:
It is the definition of liturgical vs devotional that I refer to. Liturgical music is for all the community and its lyrics reflect a ‘for all’ . ‘We’ , ‘our’, or of God speaking to us.

Devotional music , for example ‘Amazing Grace’ discusses the individual. It has words like ‘I’ and ‘my’ in the lyrics. These are still beautiful songs, but not suitable as hymns during the Mass. They are great for devotional practices. 🙂
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Where are you getting your definition of liturgical versus devotional? Could you share the source?

I get what you’re saying and I would definitely apply that thinking to a song such as “In The Garden” and “I’d rather have Jesus”, but I would not apply that to “How Great Thou Art” because it is clearly a God-focused song and not focused on a personal and intimate relationship.

As others have pointed out, the hymn in question has been printed in Catholic hymnals for decades and is regulararly sung in Catholic Masses.
 
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Startingcatholic said:
How Great Thou Art” which I personally love was heretical or had a reason I shouldn’t sing it?
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We often sang it in my Protestant Church growing up, so there is some sentimentality there for me. I have occasionally heard it at Mass, but not very often. There’s nothing explicitly heretical that I know of; although personally, my love for it has worn off.
 
GiftofMercy said:
Its the official definition of liturgical music. Liturgy being for the assembly, devotion being for the individual.
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Can you show me the document which explains this? Because I would think that liturgical music ought to be for God. Yes, to be sung by the assembly, but directed to God. And having the word “I” in the lyrics does not preclude it being sung by the assembly.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Yes, well I am not a fan of the over-emphasis on “community” manifested in so much that’s come out since Vatican II.
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I get what you’re saying, and agree with you to a certain extent. Our modern emphasis on community seems fake and contrived. But really, we can’t get away from community. To paraphrase Pope Benedict in Spe Salvi, “No man sins alone, no man is saved alone.” Community is an absolute necessity. God himself is a community and we are, as Catholics, in Communion with him and all of the other Christians who are in communion with him. To be in the image and likeness of God is to be in a community.
 
It is really a new thread, I do not want to hijack this thread.
 
Please let us know, though, if you start this new thread. I think several of us would like to see this source and discuss. I would. I’d especially be interested in how that rationale holds up against things like the Confiteor and the response to Ecce Agnus Dei.
 
One thing about this hymn: people actually sing it, unlike the scattered voices we normally hear when more modern hymns are sung.

I grew up in a Francophone parish so never heard this hymn unless I attended a Protestant funeral. But my FIL was a soloist in their United Church of Canada and was often called upon to sing it. The choir sang it at his and MIL’s funerals. It’s not one of my favourites because I associate it too much with loss. As does my daughter who told me she broke down in sobs when it was sung at her BIL’s MIL’s recent funeral.

But I’ll admit I much prefer to sing this than “Amazing Grace”, “Morning Has Broken”, or “Gather Us In”.
 
HeDa said:
I have looked through Youtube for a version where a parish sings to a pipe organ in the traditional way and can’t find one so far. All are performance pieces or with a brass band or someone playing at home.
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You’ve led a sheltered life!

I grew up with O Store Gud! played on the organ (and piano) at my Swedish Baptist Church, sung often in Swedish by very enthusiastic people of Swedish ancestry (and many actually from Sweden!).

Now that I am Catholic, our Catholic Music Minister plays it on the organ every time we sing it. Sorry, I have no recording of him playing it.

But I did find this on the You Tube–beautiful, and easy to sing to. I’m guessing that he is accompanying the congregation here, but they are not on the recording because they are not miked.


I think one reason it’s sung so much even in Catholic parishes in certain areas of the U.S. is that those areas have a large population of people with Scandinavian ancestry, and this hymn is absolutely beloved (along with Tryggare Kan Ingen Vara) by people who have this family background.
 
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HeDa said:
I have looked through Youtube for a version where a parish sings to a pipe organ in the traditional way and can’t find one so far. All are performance pieces or with a brass band or someone playing at home.
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As in traditional hymns?
 
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