How has Higher Criticism effected your faith in scripture?

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If you had to bet your soul on either believing the bible as Catholic theologians did for 2 thousand years or not believe parts of it as some have done for the last 100 years which would you pick?

I’ll pick believing the bible–if I’m wrong then put me in the dumbo group with St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas who also believed it!
 
If you had to bet your soul on either believing the bible as Catholic theologians did for 2 thousand years or not believe parts of it as some have done for the last 100 years which would you pick?

I’ll pick believing the bible–if I’m wrong then put me in the dumbo group with St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas who also believed it!
St. Augustine asked probing questions about the historicity of parts of the Bible, FYI.
 
Yes he asked questions. He didn’t however make statements intimating that parts of the bible were not true or were made up.
 
Yes he asked questions. He didn’t however make statements intimating that parts of the bible were not true or were made up.
Yes, he did. He did not consider portions of the book of Genesis to be historical.
 
DaddyGirl #10
other Christian churches were founded by Jesus, too.
Where is your evidence that Jesus founded multitudinous differing churches? In fact He commanded in these remarkable
Promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the Twelve].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

How could these commands be fulfilled if Peter or his successors could TEACH error? Do you think that the Christ lied?
 
Yes, he did. He did not consider portions of the book of Genesis to be historical.
Which portions do you have in mind? If you’re talking about Genesis 1, that text pretty obviously can’t be “historical.” Augustine read it in ways that we would now think of as non-literal, such as seeing the “light” on the first day as a reference to the creation of the angels.

Augustine’s general hermeneutic was to interpret literally where possible. Where he didn’t, this had more to do usually with ethical than scientific concerns. (He interpreted allegorically all the time, of course, but allegory doesn’t have to replace the literal sense and in Augustine’s framework usually doesn’t). He was indeed cautious about committing Christians to things that might turn out to be rationally ill-founded, as was Aquinas. And I wish the “conservatives” on this thread would follow their example methodologically.

However, Augustine was also very slow to endorse “scientific” ideas that he thought might be contrary to Scripture. His caution extended in both directions. A recent scholar, Leo Ferrari, has argued that Augustine probably thought the earth was flat, and if he did it would certainly have been for Scriptural reasons. However, Augustine is cagey about the question, so that we can’t be sure exactly what he thought. What is clear is that he worried, as many people did, about the implications of the “antipodes” for the unity of the human race, but that he was unwilling to say flatly “a spherical earth is contrary to the Faith.” As a general principle, I think his caution is a good example to follow.

The whole issue of the “antipodes” is an excellent example of an apparent conflict between science and religion that turned out to be quite illusory. Those Christians who did have problems with a spherical earth (and I don’t know of any after the eighth century) were concerned about the implications of the idea for the unity of the human race. It was taken for granted by most people that the equator was a zone of blazing fire that could not be crossed. Even if not, it was further taken for granted that the antipodes were so far away that no one could possibly get there (this is Augustine’s objection). And it was also usually assumed that if there was land, it must be inhabited. So the standard view, suggested by Augustine for instance, was that if there were antipodes they were solely made up of water. Another suggestion I’ve encountered in the writings of St. Gregory Palamas was that the spherical earth was surrounded by spheres of water and air. The world-ocean was a kind of cosmic body of water in which the round earth floated, with the top of the earth (the part people live on) projecting out into the sphere of air.

Both of these suggestions turned out to be unnecessary. In fact, the equator is habitable, and people have been able to cross from one continent to another. The problem wasn’t with either the Biblical claim that all humans have a common origin (yes, there’s a debate now about whether we all come from a single pair, but no one questions that we come from a single population group) or the evidence for a spherical earth. The problem was with entirely other assumptions that few people thought to question.

So it may be in other cases as well.

Edwin
 
Which portions do you have in mind? If you’re talking about Genesis 1, that text pretty obviously can’t be “historical.” Augustine read it in ways that we would now think of as non-literal, such as seeing the “light” on the first day as a reference to the creation of the angels.

Augustine’s general hermeneutic was to interpret literally where possible. Where he didn’t, this had more to do usually with ethical than scientific concerns. (He interpreted allegorically all the time, of course, but allegory doesn’t have to replace the literal sense and in Augustine’s framework usually doesn’t). He was indeed cautious about committing Christians to things that might turn out to be rationally ill-founded, as was Aquinas. And I wish the “conservatives” on this thread would follow their example methodologically.

However, Augustine was also very slow to endorse “scientific” ideas that he thought might be contrary to Scripture. His caution extended in both directions. A recent scholar, Leo Ferrari, has argued that Augustine probably thought the earth was flat, and if he did it would certainly have been for Scriptural reasons. However, Augustine is cagey about the question, so that we can’t be sure exactly what he thought. What is clear is that he worried, as many people did, about the implications of the “antipodes” for the unity of the human race, but that he was unwilling to say flatly “a spherical earth is contrary to the Faith.” As a general principle, I think his caution is a good example to follow.

The whole issue of the “antipodes” is an excellent example of an apparent conflict between science and religion that turned out to be quite illusory. Those Christians who did have problems with a spherical earth (and I don’t know of any after the eighth century) were concerned about the implications of the idea for the unity of the human race. It was taken for granted by most people that the equator was a zone of blazing fire that could not be crossed. Even if not, it was further taken for granted that the antipodes were so far away that no one could possibly get there (this is Augustine’s objection). And it was also usually assumed that if there was land, it must be inhabited. So the standard view, suggested by Augustine for instance, was that if there were antipodes they were solely made up of water. Another suggestion I’ve encountered in the writings of St. Gregory Palamas was that the spherical earth was surrounded by spheres of water and air. The world-ocean was a kind of cosmic body of water in which the round earth floated, with the top of the earth (the part people live on) projecting out into the sphere of air.

Both of these suggestions turned out to be unnecessary. In fact, the equator is habitable, and people have been able to cross from one continent to another. The problem wasn’t with either the Biblical claim that all humans have a common origin (yes, there’s a debate now about whether we all come from a single pair, but no one questions that we come from a single population group) or the evidence for a spherical earth. The problem was with entirely other assumptions that few people thought to question.

So it may be in other cases as well.

Edwin
This is an excellent post, which everyone should take time to read carefully.
 
Contarini #128
If you’re talking about Genesis 1, that text pretty obviously can’t be “historical.”
Such a banal conclusion smacks of the typical dismissal of the Church’s teaching all too common in some quarters here.

Real Catholics assent to the decisions of the Pontifical Biblical Commission which Pope Pius X declared to be binding in *Praestantia Sacrae Scripturae *of 1907 . Anything else is dissent.

Thus the Pontifical Biblical Commission has taught:
“6) On the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis, 1909. The Commission ruled that we cannot exclude the literal, historical sense; that we cannot regard these books as legend or symbol; that we cannot deny the reality of man’s creation in an original state of justice and integrity, his fall at the instigation of the devil, and the promise of a future Redeemer. It is recognized, the Commission said, that in some passages these chapters speak in a figurative rather than a literal sense, and also, that there are allegorical and prophetical interpretations, as are justified by the example of the Fathers of the Church. We are not bound to look for scientific exactitude in these chapters. There may be free discussion, for example, as to whether the word yom means an actual day, or a certain space of time.” [My emphasis].

See: What Does The Church Really Say About The Bible? by Edith Myers
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3752
 
In reality Higher Criticism has much for which to answer. Developed through German scholars, Msgr George A Kelly writes that the “process is full of danger” as it “reads into scripture, or forces on texts, meanings which only reflect the interpreter’s theology, not his rigorous and objective research.” The New Biblical Theorists, Msgr George A Kelly, Servant Books, 1983, p 21].

Pope Leo XIII gave the following prophetic warning in his encyclical letter *Providentissimus Deus *against the acceptance of higher-criticism and the demythologizing it employed:
“It will not throw on Scripture the light that is sought, or prove any advantage to doctrine; it will only give rise to disagreement and dissension, those sure notes of error, which the critics in question so plentifully exhibit in their own persons; and seeing that most of them are tainted with false philosophy and rationalism, it must lead to the elimination from the sacred writings of all prophecy and miracles, and of everything that is outside the natural order.”(#17).
 
How has Higher Criticism effected your faith in scripture?

I am reading my first book on the Documentary Hypothesis and it brings me to such a better understanding, but now life became so much more complicated. Honestly, I don’t know how I’m going to put all this together.
I’m certainly no expert on higher criticism, but it doesn’t affect my faith in Christ.

But what would help would be a clear definition of “inspiration”. We claim the Bible is inspired by God.

Yet for say a prophetic book like Jeremiah, who probably didn’t write the book in his own name, the process seemingly involved Jeremiah’s prophetic role as a spoken one. His disciples or followers probably took notes, and then during the enforced duration of the Babylonian exile, other editors compiled the whole thing in a more organised fashion.

Yet somehow, despite all this note taking, editing, proof reading, and regurgitating, we claim the Scriptures are “inspired”. And even then there were disputes amongst the Jews as to which books really were inspired to quite a late date canonically speaking, and disputes among Christians as to which New Testament books were inspired.

2000 years later Catholics have seven more OT books in their Bible than Protestants.

What exactly does “inspired” mean in this sense? I think that’s the core question in regard to Scripture.
 
Such a banal conclusion smacks of the typical dismissal of the Church’s teaching all too common in some quarters here.

Real Catholics assent to the decisions of the Pontifical Biblical Commission which Pope Pius X declared to be binding in *Praestantia Sacrae Scripturae *of 1907 . Anything else is dissent.

Thus the Pontifical Biblical Commission has taught:
“6) On the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis, 1909. The Commission ruled that we cannot exclude the literal, historical sense; that we cannot regard these books as legend or symbol; that we cannot deny the reality of man’s creation in an original state of justice and integrity, his fall at the instigation of the devil, and the promise of a future Redeemer. It is recognized, the Commission said, that in some passages these chapters speak in a figurative rather than a literal sense, and also, that there are allegorical and prophetical interpretations, as are justified by the example of the Fathers of the Church. We are not bound to look for scientific exactitude in these chapters. There may be free discussion, for example, as to whether the word yom means an actual day, or a certain space of time.” [My emphasis].

See: What Does The Church Really Say About The Bible? by Edith Myers
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3752
Clearly the PBC was using the word “historical” in a sense I have trouble recognizing.

To me “historical” means something that can be ascertained based on records that go back to the time in question. Ultimately it depends on some kind of eyewitness account, even if that is only known second-hand. Whenever we have an event that couldn’t have had a human witness, by definition we don’t have a historical event.

That is what I meant.

Edwin
 
This is an excellent post, which everyone should take time to read carefully.
I’m glad you liked it, given that I got muddled part way through as to which thread I was in, and a lot of it really belongs in the other thread about science and religion:D

Edwin
 
Clearly the PBC was using the word “historical” in a sense I have trouble recognizing.

To me “historical” means something that can be ascertained based on records that go back to the time in question. Ultimately it depends on some kind of eyewitness account, even if that is only known second-hand. Whenever we have an event that couldn’t have had a human witness, by definition we don’t have a historical event.

That is what I meant.

Edwin
Right. Clearly Genesis 1 can’t be historical in any sense that we understand the term “history,” simply because there was no one there to witness the events.
 
Right. Clearly Genesis 1 can’t be historical in any sense that we understand the term “history,” simply because there was no one there to witness the events.
It is historical in that what happened in time (creation) did take place, and how it all happened has been revealed in a story that can be understood (with the help of the Holy Spirit) by all humanity in all times.
 
It is historical in that what happened in time (creation) did take place, and how it all happened has been revealed in a story that can be understood (with the help of the Holy Spirit) by all humanity in all times.
I guess my point is that what you’ve described is not an understanding that most people have of what constitutes history–at least not from an academic or scholarly perspective. As a result I think the PBC’s statement has the strong possibility of being misleading or misread–at least if the PBC’s understanding of the term history agrees with yours.
 
The attempts to discredit the Pontifical Biblical Commission merely reflect the bias against the teaching of the Church. Msgr John F. McCarthy considers the definition of history at rtforum.org/lt/lt78.html in a 2 part article.

PART II. HISTORICAL CRITICISM AS AN HISTORICAL METHOD
No. 77 Roman Theological Forum | Study Program November 1998

Extracts
23. The definition of history.
“Accounts of past events recorded on a popular level reflect historical science on a popular level, if the observer and the writer adhered constantly to the concept of reality while avoiding digression into fancy or illusion motivated by a lack of common sense or by emotional involvements. On the other hand, accounts of past events that follow a disciplined and systematic adherence to the concept of reality reflect historical science on a technical level. It is our position that what constitutes the beginning of historical science is the intent to describe the facts as they really took place, and common-sense observers can succeed in this objective, even though they may not be able to recognize certain technical aspects of the events that they describe or be able to describe these events on the level of technical historical narrative. For instance, a good common-sense observer could accurately describe on a popular level how a serious automobile accident took place, even though he might not have recognized aspects of the happening that a policeman, a lawyer, a medical doctor, or a mechanic might have noticed.” [My underlining].
  1. It is true that serious historians in ancient times did not have access to all of the facts or all of the methods that are available today, but neither were some of them, in particular the sacred writers and the historians of the Patristic era, impeded by certain rationalistic prejudices that tend to falsify the judgments of many modern historians.
    rtforum.org/lt/lt78.html
 
The attempts to discredit the Pontifical Biblical Commission merely reflect the bias against the teaching of the Church. Msgr John F. McCarthy considers the definition of history at rtforum.org/lt/lt78.html in a 2 part article.

PART II. HISTORICAL CRITICISM AS AN HISTORICAL METHOD
No. 77 Roman Theological Forum | Study Program November 1998

Extracts
23. The definition of history.
“Accounts of past events recorded on a popular level reflect historical science on a popular level, if the observer and the writer adhered constantly to the concept of reality while avoiding digression into fancy or illusion motivated by a lack of common sense or by emotional involvements. On the other hand, accounts of past events that follow a disciplined and systematic adherence to the concept of reality reflect historical science on a technical level. It is our position that what constitutes the beginning of historical science is the intent to describe the facts as they really took place, and common-sense observers can succeed in this objective, even though they may not be able to recognize certain technical aspects of the events that they describe or be able to describe these events on the level of technical historical narrative. For instance, a good common-sense observer could accurately describe on a popular level how a serious automobile accident took place, even though he might not have recognized aspects of the happening that a policeman, a lawyer, a medical doctor, or a mechanic might have noticed.” [My underlining].
  1. It is true that serious historians in ancient times did not have access to all of the facts or all of the methods that are available today, but neither were some of them, in particular the sacred writers and the historians of the Patristic era, impeded by certain rationalistic prejudices that tend to falsify the judgments of many modern historians.
    rtforum.org/lt/lt78.html
You obviously put a lot of stock by Msgr. McCarthy’s opinions. I trust you will understand that to many of the rest of us he is simply one more priest with an opinion.

His definition of history is the old one of Ranke. I think most historians today would agree that it’s impossible to describe the facts as they happened. Some element of interpretation always intervenes. I would define the historian’s task rather this way: to offer the most plausible and honest interpretation possible of the existing evidence (and of the absence of evidence).

Edwin
 
How has Higher Criticism effected your faith in scripture?

I am reading my first book on the Documentary Hypothesis and it brings me to such a better understanding, but now life became so much more complicated. Honestly, I don’t know how I’m going to put all this together.
It has not affected it at all.

I am ADD enough to be able to separate Scholarly Opinion, Church Teaching, Personal Application, No Idea What I’m Reading.

There is one compass I need to read Scriptures: Christ Jesus!

Peace,
 
Contarini #139
His definition of history is the old one of Ranke. I think most historians today would agree that it’s impossible to describe the facts as they happened.
As historians are of many beliefs or none, their “agreement” is not the criteria. And as Christ gave us His Church, while wring nothing, the only criteria for interpreting the Sacred Scriptures, canonised by His Church alone, is the Church – which has done so.

131. So many of the things recorded are incredible on the face of it. Who could call the account of our first parents historical?
The account of our first parents, given in the Book of Genesis, truly records the historical facts. The first chapters of Genesis, just as the other chapters of that Book, obviously intend to give history; and the account is quoted throughout the rest of Scripture as historical. But whilst the account is true history, in the sense of excluding fable, legend, and a purely allegorical fantasy, it is a popular, and not a scientific account. This, however, is merely a question of method and style, not of fact. What is described is true, but it is not described according to strict chronology, nor in modern scientific terminology. Many metaphorical and popular expressions occur, adapted to the understanding of the people living at the time the account was written. But the way in which a fact is described does not destroy the historical value of the fact. Most certainly we have to accept as fact a Garden of Eden in which our first parents were placed, and in which they disobeyed God with evil consequences to themselves and to their posterity, the whole.”
Catholic Apologetics Online (Fathers Rumble and Carty).
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Genesis&db=2

474. Are there any really convincing purely scientific and purely historical proofs of the events in Genesis?
No. Nor should they be expected. Those events belong to what is known as pre-history. The Book of Genesis was written tens of thousands of years alter the events described in its first chapters. No contemporary written documents survive from men who stood by while the universe was being created, or who knew Adam and Eve and their children personally. Of later events in Genesis there were surviving human traditions and possibly written accounts. But what is recorded in the earlier chapters could have been made known to the human writer of them only by divine revelation. Scientifically and historically the documents of the New Testament can be proved reliable; but without faith in Christ and the Catholic Church one can have no guarantee of the truth of the events recorded in the primitive history contained in the first chapters of Genesis. The normal conditions for exact history as we know the word today were simply lacking then. But that does not affect the historical truth of what is recorded in the Book of Genesis, all due allowance being made for the literary form and style in which the revelation granted to Moses was committed to writing.”
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Genesis&db=4
 
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