How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

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GKC said:
Henry’s case was as strong as was common, in his day (and he had an even stronger case, an impediment against the justice of public honest, which he never used). It was stronger than the case his sister Margaret used, to get her first decree of nullity. And as strong as the two dispensations given to Henry Brandon, to marry his other sister, Mary.

The necessity for marriages which were essentially statecraft, the marriage of country, realm, family, interest, as opposed to individual to individual, to be made and unmade, for political reasons, made the whole thing commonplace. It was a constantly evolving system, which grew increasingly complex, until Trent took it in hand (Session XXIV).

GKC
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Thanks GKC. You are our encyclopedia of history. What you have demonstrated is that Henry’s issues with Rome were far more complicated than most people realize.
Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
Thanks GKC. You are our encyclopedia of history. What you have demonstrated is that Henry’s issues with Rome were far more complicated than most people realize.
Anna
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That’s true, and it’s true of most of history. What I haven’t mentioned is Charles V.

It’s all complex.

GKC
 
Haven’t we all. I’m ten times the sinner you are, my sister in Christ. What a screw-up I can be! God only knows…and my confessor every other Saturday or so! 😦 Thanks be to God for our Saviour!!

Kate keeps doing a “hint, hint” about how she misses St. Paul’s. She’d go back to the Anglican Church in a New York minute. My kids miss it, too. I’m the only one with “Catholic issues” who misses Catholicism at all.

Listening yesterday to the ladies in our staff room describing their sons going through confirmation, what a sad hell that sounds like. It’s a three-year program in our area. The teens have to go to classes for THREE years, go on one or two full-day retreats each year of the program, and do like 30 hours of community service plus they can’t miss Mass for those three years, having to get the priest to sign off their attendance each week. They were talking about how their sons HATE the whole program and how they said, “tough! suck it up! You’re doing this!” I was thinking how heart-broken I’d be to put my sons and daughter through a boot-camp style religious experience, make them jump through hoops and ladders and checklists and nonsense all the acknowledge their baptism and reaffirm their faith in Christ? The Anglican church around here is so less formal and more didactic and spiritual about it. It’s a big deal but it’s not torture. This just stinks. The first communion stuff is awful here, too. The director of catechesis and religious ed is HATED by just about the entire parish. I pity kids going through this. When I was a kid, I’d have gone NUTS and rebelled so much…what a turn-off…
Anna_Scott said:
Gurney,
That might just be the incentive I need to swim the Tiber. lol.

I appreciate your kindness, thought it is not deserved. I’ve committed more than my share of sins in this lifetime.
Anna
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Haven’t we all. I’m ten times the sinner you are, my sister in Christ. What a screw-up I can be! God only knows…and my confessor every other Saturday or so! 😦 Thanks be to God for our Saviour!!

Kate keeps doing a “hint, hint” about how she misses St. Paul’s. She’d go back to the Anglican Church in a New York minute. My kids miss it, too. I’m the only one with “Catholic issues” who misses Catholicism at all.

Listening yesterday to the ladies in our staff room describing their sons going through confirmation, what a sad hell that sounds like. It’s a three-year program in our area. The teens have to go to classes for THREE years, go on one or two full-day retreats each year of the program, and do like 30 hours of community service plus they can’t miss Mass for those three years, having to get the priest to sign off their attendance each week. They were talking about how their sons HATE the whole program and how they said, “tough! suck it up! You’re doing this!” I was thinking how heart-broken I’d be to put my sons and daughter through a boot-camp style religious experience, make them jump through hoops and ladders and checklists and nonsense all the acknowledge their baptism and reaffirm their faith in Christ? The Anglican church around here is so less formal and more didactic and spiritual about it. It’s a big deal but it’s not torture. This just stinks. The first communion stuff is awful here, too. The director of catechesis and religious ed is HATED by just about the entire parish. I pity kids going through this. When I was a kid, I’d have gone NUTS and rebelled so much…what a turn-off…
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Gurney,
You sound about as settled as I am. I’m not sure if you are a Catholic with Anglican issues or an Anglican with Catholic issues. 😉
Anna
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I’m sure! 😛 Keep moving, Anna, Keep moving!! LOL You can’t be “too conservative” with W.O.! As Jim might say, “just say no to laying hands on hairspray!” LOL
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Gurney,
I just found this post. You are really making me laugh now. :rotfl::rotfl:

I’m exhausted and signing off.

Peace and blessings to all,
Anna

P.S. I’ve really missed you guys.
 
Just don’t ask him about papal history, the American Civil War, or any TV shows after about 1985 or muscle cars! 😛
Anna_Scott said:
Thanks GKC. You are our encyclopedia of history. What you have demonstrated is that Henry’s issues with Rome were far more complicated than most people realize.
Anna
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Oh God, don’t say that, Anna. Jim is going to make fun of me again for being restless and start the nail and hammer stuff! help! 😛
Anna_Scott said:
Gurney,
You sound about as settled as I am. I’m not sure if you are a Catholic with Anglican issues or an Anglican with Catholic issues. 😉
Anna
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Are you saying since homosexuality isn’t ontological that a priest having gay fantasies day in day out, having SSA for men in his bible studies and at coffee hour or at Mass isn’t something that we should be concerned about? Obviously even if he doesn’t manifest it in outward behavior, it’s dangerous thinking, can end up informing his values as a pastor and counselor and confessor and even can turn into something more serious. Homosexuals should be weeded out of the seminaries and priesthood asap in my opinion. I’m with the pope on this one. When you say homosexuality isn’t ontological, you’re then saying it’s a learned behavior right, Meghan? And if so, then it can be unlearned. Is that what you’re saying then? I’m just trying to understand your position.
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Sorry not to answer sooner - I’ve been without a computer. (I’ll be without one for three weeks after today too, unless my husband’s plane doesn’t fly today.)

Well, I am not sure what you mean by day in and day out, so I guess it depends. If any person is going around having sexual fantasies all day, including in Bible studies, that would be kind of odd and over-sexed, you know? Even if it was about the women in the Bible study. Sexual fantasy can even be a form of unchastity in a married person under some circumstances, so a person who was unable to control that aspect of his life has a problem. So that could very well disqualify someone from the priesthood - it would indeed be dangerous. But that is true whether it is directed towards women or men. That Fr Cutie fellow is a good example of a heterosexual man having a problem in this area.

But most people learn by the time they are adults to control that part of their lives most of the time.

In terms of not being ontological - no, I don’t really mean that it is learned. I do think there are ways people can learn what loosely might be called abnormal sexual behaviors, either due to experiences as children or people who become sex hobbyists. I suspect those are also more likely to be the people who have problems with relating to sexuality appropriately. I think in most cases having same sex attraction is biological in origin. So unlearning it is probably not going to be effective in most cases.

When I say I don’t think that is ontological, I don’t think people who have SSA are anything other then men and women. They aren’t really “gay” men, they are men, in the same way that a man with a club foot, or a melancholic personality is a man. Some people make the argument that men with ssa aren’t really men, so they can’t be priests, but I don’t really buy that. If they aren’t men, they have some other ontological category, which means they are a “real” third sex as some have argued. But that isn’t a viable Christian position. That’s why a lot of Christians try to avoid the terms gay and even homosexual. And if we can’t have imperfect men, then that cuts out a lot of other people as well - we couldn’t have diabetic priests either, because of their disordered organs.

I think that the CC has probably taken the wrong tack in trying to remove all men with persistant SSA from seminaries, although it;s an understandable response. But I don’t think that has been the primary cause of the problems with priests - I think it is likely more directly related to the same things that result in alcoholic priests. When you have a bunch of men who are asked to live as celibates, and they are in a job that can make friendship with the people in the communities they serve limited, those guys have to be really supported. They need to have opportunities for breaks, friendships with other priests, good oversight by their bishops, and so on. Instead you have guys that are over-worked, increasingly likely to live alone, not getting any vacations, and not enough oversight by bishops. (I think it’s interesting that in Anglicanism, many celibate priests are connected to universities or orders, and in Orthodoxy they are monks. They have built in support communities. Because of the Catholic priest shortage, I think this has been less true than in the past.)

But the scandal was about priests abusing girls as well as boys, and it was mostly about how the problems were handled by the bishops. Getting gay men out of seminaries won’t help those things, but it might disqualify a lot of good priests. (Mickey’s hero Fr Seraphim Rose for example, who did some rather amazing things.)
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Oh God, don’t say that, Anna. Jim is going to make fun of me again for being restless and start the nail and hammer stuff! help! 😛
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I’ve recently seen some TV ads for some sort of superglue stuff, comes in sheets, that’s guaranteed to bind anything to anything. Might give that a try.

GKC
 
Then I’d be stuck and couldn’t move; that’d defeat the purpose of restlessness! 😃 My dad calls me “velcro” 😛
GKC said:
I’ve recently seen some TV ads for some sort of superglue stuff, comes in sheets, that’s guaranteed to bind anything to anything. Might give that a try.

GKC
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They’re called “guitar cables,” dude! Get with the program! Next I suppose you’ll call a pickguard “that white thingy under the strings” and pickups “those metal dealies that make sound reverberate!” LOL!😛

I’m a Fender man myself: one Strat, one Tele:cool:
GKC said:
Or guitars with extension cords connected to them.

GKC
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
They’re called “guitar cables,” dude! Get with the program! Next I suppose you’ll call a pickguard “that white thingy under the strings” and pickups “those metal dealies that make sound reverberate!” LOL!😛

I’m a Fender man myself: one Strat, one Tele:cool:
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Oh, so that’s what the white thingy under the strings is.

GKC
 
Dang straight; I yanked the stock white one from my cobalt blue telecaster and put on a Nashville-style pearl one. Looks smokin’! Funny…with baseball it’s Giants or nuthin’, with guitars it’s Fender or bust…with religion it’s uh, er, well, uh…ahhhgggggh! 😛
GKC said:
Oh, so that’s what the white thingy under the strings is.

GKC
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Dang straight; I yanked the stock white one from my cobalt blue telecaster and put on a Nashville-style pearl one. Looks smokin’! Funny…with baseball it’s Giants or nuthin’, with guitars it’s Fender or bust…with religion it’s uh, er, well, uh…ahhhgggggh! 😛
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Life is complicated.

GKC
 
Double-helixes, nucleotides, and messenger RNA is complicated.
 
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