How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

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Oh God, don’t say that, Anna. Jim is going to make fun of me again for being restless and start the nail and hammer stuff! help! 😛
Gurney,
You know, I really feel bad about this comment–mainly, because it can easily be misinterpreted. The truth is I’ve never met any Christian more determined in the search for God’s Truth and for the right Church. You continue to persevere. I admire that about you.

Perhaps you are super glued to Christ and velcroed to a Church. 😉 Did that make things worse or better??? I’m not sure.

Anna
 
Oh, gosh, Jim just likes to give me a bad time jokingly. He really cares that I find my place really. He just likes to razz me. I give him a bad time, too. He’s a wonderful friend on here. And my dad, really, wants to go back to the Anglican church. He doesn’t buy into Catholic theology/morality on many levels. He frequently says that. And the molestation stuff turned him off BIGTIME! But he doesn’t go back to the Anglican church because he doesn’t want to eat crow. Also, since he and my mom followed Kate and I to the Catholic Church, he doesn’t want to return to the Anglican Church with us. My mom said that it’ll look like their son calls the religious shots (which actually, since my parents were never well-catechized, I did! :p). As a teenager, my parents never even wanted to go to Mass. I had to talk them into it! They always “had a headache” or “were too busy” etc. LOL I talked my dad into RCIA back in 1991. He was enthusiastic about it actually. and he enjoyed RCIA and the people there so much. But after it was over he steadily got burn out. So did I, so did mom. We went to St. Paul’s. In the early 2000’s, I started re-evaluating my beliefs and found that RCIA did a pretty poop-poor job of catechizing me as well. That’s when I got into EWTN/Catholic Answers, catholic books, online stuff, you name it. I became convinced that the Catholic Church was the true Church and we went back to her together. Kate and I got our marriage validated before a priest (he was wonderful!) and we felt whole.

When NFP gave us the most stress of our lives within our marriage, I started thinking twice. It gave Kate post-pardem depression and all sorts of misery. And it was NOT 99.9% effective but rather the opposite in fact.

We just couldn’t take it. And there was nothing in the Church to aid us, no priest would meet with us, stunk.

I also have struggled with inconsistencies, as you know. Pius V vs. Novus Ordo makes no sense, Lumen Gentium contradicts the “only in matters of faith and morals” stuff with regard to infallibility, Islam worships the True God that we worship and they are “foremost” ??, indulgences, treasury of merit, etc. I still struggle. So, I guess I’m a hypocrite as a Catholic.

This morning Kate was really missing St. Paul’s and was talking about how sad she is to have returned to Catholicism on one hand but then saying the opposite moments later that we are Catholics and I guess this is where we belong. So, there are factors here that make me waffle, not just me.

I honestly thought, about a year ago, of trying Orthodoxy because I got tired of both groups. Honestly I felt like “I hate Republicans and Democrats! Why not try a third party!” LOL…And in Church polity they make the most sense. But in studying them, I really disagreed with their Christus Victor approach, their views on Catholic validity, their view of Original Sin, and I don’t see the anger toward the filioque and unleavened bread, etc. And they seem more anti-ecumenism. And yet they make a ton of sense on so many levels.

Sometimes I wonder if there is no ONE Church that holds all the truth and that it’s spread out and they’re all a mess to some degree, some less than others. The Orthodox are the least messy but they have their issues, the Catholics are so law-driven and “obligation” centered with heavy legalism, the Anglicans are, well, just a total mess that is beyond description, the Protestants (especially Calvinists!!) are in serious error and heterodoxy if not total heresy, and the Orthodox are mistaken about several issues IMO. So, where does one go? Heck, right now my rear end is just parked at the Catholic Church. I’ll be going there in about a half an hour.

And it’s tough. I sit in the Anglican church questioning so many things in my head. Some eye-rolling.

Then when at the Catholic Church (our bishop recently passed away) they say, “it’ll take about six months before we get a new bishop. The pope is carefully selecting a new one” my history brain kicks in and I think…“hmmm. Back in Augustine’s time the PEOPLE elected him bishop of Hippo! And the popes didn’t install bishops at all? This is ahistorical!” LOL…

I can’t win.

But you are right; I sure love the Lord and just want to do right by him. I keep praying to Him for guidance.

I’m envious of the people who feel they’ve found their Church home and peace. I am trying. At this point I am just agreeing to try to keep my mouth shut, be obedient, and be a decent Catholic. Am I succeeding? Heck I don’t know…😦
Gurney,
You know, I really feel bad about this comment–mainly, because it can easily be misinterpreted. The truth is I’ve never met any Christian more determined in the search for God’s Truth and for the right Church. You continue to persevere. I admire that about you.

Perhaps you are super glued to Christ and velcroed to a Church. 😉 Did that make things worse or better??? I’m not sure.

Anna
 
Sorry not to answer sooner - I’ve been without a computer. (I’ll be without one for three weeks after today too, unless my husband’s plane doesn’t fly today.)

Well, I am not sure what you mean by day in and day out, so I guess it depends. If any person is going around having sexual fantasies all day, including in Bible studies, that would be kind of odd and over-sexed, you know? Even if it was about the women in the Bible study. Sexual fantasy can even be a form of unchastity in a married person under some circumstances, so a person who was unable to control that aspect of his life has a problem. So that could very well disqualify someone from the priesthood - it would indeed be dangerous. But that is true whether it is directed towards women or men. That Fr Cutie fellow is a good example of a heterosexual man having a problem in this area.

But most people learn by the time they are adults to control that part of their lives most of the time.

In terms of not being ontological - no, I don’t really mean that it is learned. I do think there are ways people can learn what loosely might be called abnormal sexual behaviors, either due to experiences as children or people who become sex hobbyists. I suspect those are also more likely to be the people who have problems with relating to sexuality appropriately. I think in most cases having same sex attraction is biological in origin. So unlearning it is probably not going to be effective in most cases.

When I say I don’t think that is ontological, I don’t think people who have SSA are anything other then men and women. They aren’t really “gay” men, they are men, in the same way that a man with a club foot, or a melancholic personality is a man. Some people make the argument that men with ssa aren’t really men, so they can’t be priests, but I don’t really buy that. If they aren’t men, they have some other ontological category, which means they are a “real” third sex as some have argued. But that isn’t a viable Christian position. That’s why a lot of Christians try to avoid the terms gay and even homosexual. And if we can’t have imperfect men, then that cuts out a lot of other people as well - we couldn’t have diabetic priests either, because of their disordered organs.

I think that the CC has probably taken the wrong tack in trying to remove all men with persistant SSA from seminaries, although it;s an understandable response. But I don’t think that has been the primary cause of the problems with priests - I think it is likely more directly related to the same things that result in alcoholic priests. When you have a bunch of men who are asked to live as celibates, and they are in a job that can make friendship with the people in the communities they serve limited, those guys have to be really supported. They need to have opportunities for breaks, friendships with other priests, good oversight by their bishops, and so on. Instead you have guys that are over-worked, increasingly likely to live alone, not getting any vacations, and not enough oversight by bishops. (I think it’s interesting that in Anglicanism, many celibate priests are connected to universities or orders, and in Orthodoxy they are monks. They have built in support communities. Because of the Catholic priest shortage, I think this has been less true than in the past.)

But the scandal was about priests abusing girls as well as boys, and it was mostly about how the problems were handled by the bishops. Getting gay men out of seminaries won’t help those things, but it might disqualify a lot of good priests. (Mickey’s hero Fr Seraphim Rose for example, who did some rather amazing things.)
Bluegoat,
This is an interesting response to Gurney’s question about sexual orientation and ontology. Oh, if we just had Thomas Aquinas around for this discussion. Would be interesting.

I do agree that sexual orientation has much to do with genetics, but it can also be related to experiences. In an earlier post I gave the example of women, after being sexually abused/assaulted by men may turn their affection towards women. The same is true for men who have been abused. Sometimes the orientation remains and sometimes they return to heterosexuality.

The question of ontology is a bit tricky, especially when we consider babies who are born with genitalia of both sexes. Then the parents, consulting with doctors, actually have to choose the sex of the infant. Surgery is performed with a 50/50 chance the wrong sex was chosen. This could create a an ontological mess.

Sexual orientation is definitely complicated. I don’t think those of same sex affection should be banned from Priesthood, if they take a vow of celibacy. I agree that Priests need oversight and support, regardless of sexual orientation.

I’m sure many of SSA may argue that celibacy is not fair. To some extent is does seem unfair, especially if they are not allowed to marry. But then, I’m a single women and have no intentions of marrying again. So, I am called to celibacy also–for the rest of my life. That hardly seems fair either, but I have to yield to Christ and pray for the strength to remain celibate.

Anna
 
The Tele is like a shark—primitive, tough, mean, perfect for what it does. The Strat is far more versatile, beautiful rich tones, and a huge step up IMO.

What do you mean Strats don’t like you in return? LOL!?:confused:😛
 
Good points, Anna. And as I said to Meghan several posts ago, I’m not saying that SSA-tempted priests should be banned and punished, I just said “I do care” that they have it. I think it’s of concern and it should factor into the screening process for the priesthood. Pope Benedict at this point is taking a conservative, cautious approach toward it.

In my diocese, the vast, vast majority of the priests are very effeminate. When I say that in here, some Catholics blast back “there’s no sin in being effeminate!” But my only reason for saying that is, with a heavy dose of common sense, trust me, there are A LOT of gay priests around here, a lot. Two have come out even with one of those leaving the Church and protesting it around here. The other just admitted to taking leaves of absence to be with his boyfriend, etc. He works at the diocese now. :rolleyes: The folks on local Catholic TV are very gay in mannerisms. My dad thinks 7 out of 10 of them are gay around here. While I can’t back that up, I’d say he’s in the ball park! Does priests being gay concern me? Yes. Because it might lead to an acceptance of it in their pastoral care and counseling with could scandalize the laity. I don’t like the idea. But if they can be objective, know that their thinking is disordered, grapple with it like we all grapple with our sins, and teach against it with maturity, I’m somewhat ok with it I suppose.

Gotta split! Mass time…
Bluegoat,
This is an interesting response to Gurney’s question about sexual orientation and ontology. Oh, if we just had Thomas Aquinas around for this discussion. Would be interesting.

I do agree that sexual orientation has much to do with genetics, but it can also be related to experiences. In an earlier post I gave the example of women, after being sexually abused/assaulted by men may turn their affection towards women. The same is true for men who have been abused. Sometimes the orientation remains and sometimes they return to heterosexuality.

The question of ontology is a bit tricky, especially when we consider babies who are born with genitalia of both sexes. Then the parents, consulting with doctors, actually have to choose the sex of the infant. Surgery is performed with a 50/50 chance the wrong sex was chosen. This could create a an ontological mess.

Sexual orientation is definitely complicated. I don’t think those of same sex affection should be banned from Priesthood, if they take a vow of celibacy. I agree that Priests need oversight and support, regardless of sexual orientation.

I’m sure many of SSA may argue that celibacy is not fair. To some extent is does seem unfair, especially if they are not allowed to marry. But then, I’m a single women and have no intentions of marrying again. So, I am called to celibacy also–for the rest of my life. That hardly seems fair either, but I have to yield to Christ and pray for the strength to remain celibate.

Anna
 
Oh, gosh, Jim just likes to give me a bad time jokingly. He really cares that I find my place really. He just likes to razz me. I give him a bad time, too. He’s a wonderful friend on here. And my dad, really, wants to go back to the Anglican church. He doesn’t buy into Catholic theology/morality on many levels. He frequently says that. And the molestation stuff turned him off BIGTIME! But he doesn’t go back to the Anglican church because he doesn’t want to eat crow. Also, since he and my mom followed Kate and I to the Catholic Church, he doesn’t want to return to the Anglican Church with us. My mom said that it’ll look like their son calls the religious shots (which actually, since my parents were never well-catechized, I did! :p). As a teenager, my parents never even wanted to go to Mass. I had to talk them into it! They always “had a headache” or “were too busy” etc. LOL I talked my dad into RCIA back in 1991. He was enthusiastic about it actually. and he enjoyed RCIA and the people there so much. But after it was over he steadily got burn out. So did I, so did mom. We went to St. Paul’s. In the early 2000’s, I started re-evaluating my beliefs and found that RCIA did a pretty poop-poor job of catechizing me as well. That’s when I got into EWTN/Catholic Answers, catholic books, online stuff, you name it. I became convinced that the Catholic Church was the true Church and we went back to her together. Kate and I got our marriage validated before a priest (he was wonderful!) and we felt whole.

When NFP gave us the most stress of our lives within our marriage, I started thinking twice. It gave Kate post-pardem depression and all sorts of misery. And it was NOT 99.9% effective but rather the opposite in fact.

We just couldn’t take it. And there was nothing in the Church to aid us, no priest would meet with us, stunk.

I also have struggled with inconsistencies, as you know. Pius V vs. Novus Ordo makes no sense, Lumen Gentium contradicts the “only in matters of faith and morals” stuff with regard to infallibility, Islam worships the True God that we worship and they are “foremost” ??, indulgences, treasury of merit, etc. I still struggle. So, I guess I’m a hypocrite as a Catholic.

This morning Kate was really missing St. Paul’s and was talking about how sad she is to have returned to Catholicism on one hand but then saying the opposite moments later that we are Catholics and I guess this is where we belong. So, there are factors here that make me waffle, not just me.

I honestly thought, about a year ago, of trying Orthodoxy because I got tired of both groups. Honestly I felt like “I hate Republicans and Democrats! Why not try a third party!” LOL…And in Church polity they make the most sense. But in studying them, I really disagreed with their Christus Victor approach, their views on Catholic validity, their view of Original Sin, and I don’t see the anger toward the filioque and unleavened bread, etc. And they seem more anti-ecumenism. And yet they make a ton of sense on so many levels.

Sometimes I wonder if there is no ONE Church that holds all the truth and that it’s spread out and they’re all a mess to some degree, some less than others. The Orthodox are the least messy but they have their issues, the Catholics are so law-driven and “obligation” centered with heavy legalism, the Anglicans are, well, just a total mess that is beyond description, the Protestants (especially Calvinists!!) are in serious error and heterodoxy if not total heresy, and the Orthodox are mistaken about several issues IMO. So, where does one go? Heck, right now my rear end is just parked at the Catholic Church. I’ll be going there in about a half an hour.

And it’s tough. I sit in the Anglican church questioning so many things in my head. Some eye-rolling.

Then when at the Catholic Church (our bishop recently passed away) they say, “it’ll take about six months before we get a new bishop. The pope is carefully selecting a new one” my history brain kicks in and I think…“hmmm. Back in Augustine’s time the PEOPLE elected him bishop of Hippo! And the popes didn’t install bishops at all? This is ahistorical!” LOL…

I can’t win.

But you are right; I sure love the Lord and just want to do right by him. I keep praying to Him for guidance.

I’m envious of the people who feel they’ve found their Church home and peace. I am trying. At this point I am just agreeing to try to keep my mouth shut, be obedient, and be a decent Catholic. Am I succeeding? Heck I don’t know…😦
Gurney,

I’ve got to give you credit for honesty. You tell it like it is. That’s important. I know you love our Lord. I think at some point we just have to choose a Church and serve the Lord. I think you and I both over think things and it uses up so much energy.

As I told you, I finally decided to be confirmed in my conservative Episcopal Church and get on with my life as a Christian. I want to focus my energy on serving our Lord and others. With my health challenges, my energy is limited. So, I need to put it to good use.

In the end, it all comes down to the Great Commandment-to Love God with our heart, mind and soul, and to love others as ourselves. I cringe when I think of coming face to face with Christ, who would ask me what I’ve done with the last few years of my life. I’d have to confess, I spent my time and energy trying to find the “one true Church.” I’ve been treading water in the Tiber near the Anglican Shore. What would Christ say to me? Would he say, “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them”?

Peace to you, good friend,
Anna
 
Good points, Anna. And as I said to Meghan several posts ago, I’m not saying that SSA-tempted priests should be banned and punished, I just said “I do care” that they have it. I think it’s of concern and it should factor into the screening process for the priesthood. Pope Benedict at this point is taking a conservative, cautious approach toward it.

In my diocese, the vast, vast majority of the priests are very effeminate. When I say that in here, some Catholics blast back “there’s no sin in being effeminate!” But my only reason for saying that is, with a heavy dose of common sense, trust me, there are A LOT of gay priests around here, a lot. Two have come out even with one of those leaving the Church and protesting it around here. The other just admitted to taking leaves of absence to be with his boyfriend, etc. He works at the diocese now. :rolleyes: The folks on local Catholic TV are very gay in mannerisms. My dad thinks 7 out of 10 of them are gay around here. While I can’t back that up, I’d say he’s in the ball park! Does priests being gay concern me? Yes. Because it might lead to an acceptance of it in their pastoral care and counseling with could scandalize the laity. I don’t like the idea. But if they can be objective, know that their thinking is disordered, grapple with it like we all grapple with our sins, and teach against it with maturity, I’m somewhat ok with it I suppose.

Gotta split! Mass time…
I can see your point here. You definitely raise valid concerns.

Don’t be late for Mass,
Anna
 
Gurney,
That might just be the incentive I need to swim the Tiber. lol.

I appreciate your kindness, thought it is not deserved. I’ve committed more than my share of sins in this lifetime.
Anna
Anna, stop with the self hate. You are a child of God. Nothing in heaven or in earth can seperate you from God’s love for you. No angel or demon, power or principality. Don’t forget that…while we were sinners, Christ died for us(Romans 5:8) because of his love for us (John 3:16)
 
Go start one and let me know. I’ll hop on board! I’ll just say this…

I hate SG’s and I think Les Paul’s are uncomfortable, don’t sound good except with distortion ON, and are heavier than a Giant Redwood! I also hate the way Gibson glues their necks to the body. Lame. I’m a Fender guy all the way! The ES 335 Gibson and ES 175 are both amazing though.
 
Anna, stop with the self hate. You are a child of God. Nothing in heaven or in earth can seperate you from God’s love for you. No angel or demon, power or principality. Don’t forget that…while we were sinners, Christ died for us(Romans 5:8) because of his love for us (John 3:16)
JohnnyReb,
Thank you so much. I needed to hear these words and this Scripture today.

Anna :signofcross:
 
GKC hasn’t been on here in a while today. I wonder if he’s ACTUALLY watching the Superbowl! LOL! That would be out of character. He’s probably reading about Hiroshima or something…😛
 
GKC hasn’t been on here in a while today. I wonder if he’s ACTUALLY watching the Superbowl! LOL! That would be out of character. He’s probably reading about Hiroshima or something…😛
The Dardanelles, actually.

And I been sick.

GKC
 
GKC hasn’t been on here in a while today. I wonder if he’s ACTUALLY watching the Superbowl! LOL! That would be out of character. He’s probably reading about Hiroshima or something…😛
Gurney,

Is that payback for GKC’s comment to you about superglue stuff that comes in sheets, guaranteed to bind anything to anything? 😃

Anna
 
Oh, shoot, maybe! LOL I think Jim has been in the Bermuda Triangle looking for the Loch Ness Monster or out in the valley around here looking for crop circles. He’s a huge X-Files fan so supernatural phenomena is his bread and butter! :D:eek:

I’m glad the Packers won the superbowl. I can’t stand the Steelers!! yuck-o-roony! I didn’t have a pony in this race, though. 😊
Gurney,

Is that payback for GKC’s comment to you about superglue stuff that comes in sheets, guaranteed to bind anything to anything? 😃

Anna
 
Oh, shoot, maybe! LOL I think Jim has been in the Bermuda Triangle looking for the Loch Ness Monster or out in the valley around here looking for crop circles. He’s a huge X-Files fan so supernatural phenomena is his bread and butter! :D:eek:

I’m glad the Packers won the superbowl. I can’t stand the Steelers!! yuck-o-roony! I didn’t have a pony in this race, though. 😊
Loch Ness and Bermuda Triangle, yes.

Crop circles and X-Files, no.

GKC
 
Aww, I bet if I trucked on down to South (or was it North??) Carolina and sneaked on in the backdoor I’d see Jim in the dark with his lady watching Season One of the X-Files, both adorned in “I want to believe! Fox Muldur!” t-shirts and glasses like Langley! Maybe even a poster of the alien bounty hunter and Tanguska! 😛

Honestly, not liking the X-Files, IMO, is like sci fi blasphemy. It’s a result of delirium or a hard drive crash not liking that show. One of the top five greatest sci fi shows of all time only second to Star Trek…
Loch Ness and Bermuda Triangle, yes.

Crop circles and X-Files, no.

GKC
 
JohnnyReb,
Thank you so much. I needed to hear these words and this Scripture today.

Anna :signofcross:
You’re welcome. I just saw that you need a Barnabas in your life right now. You know, son of encouragement. 😃
 
Aww, I bet if I trucked on down to South (or was it North??) Carolina and sneaked on in the backdoor I’d see Jim in the dark with his lady watching Season One of the X-Files, both adorned in “I want to believe! Fox Muldur!” t-shirts and glasses like Langley! Maybe even a poster of the alien bounty hunter and Tanguska! 😛

Honestly, not liking the X-Files, IMO, is like sci fi blasphemy. It’s a result of delirium or a hard drive crash not liking that show. One of the top five greatest sci fi shows of all time only second to Star Trek…
Tunguska, yes.

GKC
 
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