How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

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Where did everybody go??? I’m suddenly all alone on this thread. 🤷 Did I miss the Rapture?
Anna
Heh. That actually elicited a real-life guffaw from me, Anna. 😃

I’ve been scanning the forums waiting for the HOT WATER to return to my shower, since 2 of my teenage DDs saw fit to use it all up in their long, exquisitely hot baths…but couldn’t see anywhere I could interject, as I certainly don’t get the where this discussion has come from, nor where it is going.

But thanks for making me laugh. And for giving me a chance to enter into the discussion. 👍
 
I’m back, Anna. I had to give my three kids a bath and then read to them. Tonight it was “The Jolly Barnyard” and “3D Bugs!” LOL…Kate cracks up at how I sing the Jolly Barnyard to them. 😛

I agree with all that you said, Anna. There are a lot of intangiables. Will I ever agree with Lumen Gentium? Heck, maybe you’re right and it just won’t happen. I don’t know. I agree with you that the Anglican Church was a comfortable place. Why? Because I’m independent by nature. That doesn’t mean I have a rebel “I’ll do what I please!” approach but rather I see the good in many things and synthesize. It’s my nature. Perhaps it’s a curse. But I see the Orthodox love of liturgy and not spoiling a good thing. I like that. I like their consistency with the Fathers in many things. I like the Atonement, soteriology, and views on original sin, redemption, concupisence, confession, the Passion, the Mass, etc. In the Evangelicals I like their passion for Scripture and good sermons. Anglicanism, ideally should house all the things I like here. But I see them moving too Calvinist, sadly. Perhaps I’m wrong.

I find Calvinism monstrous. The idea of God predestining the human race to have a few elect saved, and then God deciding to damn the rest and planning it all out with no cooperation or interaction on our parts, no give and take, no real free will in the end, just a programmed destiny that is in many ways tragic and Christ not entering into us and truly affecting a change but rather just rather putting us into an incontrovertable path, eesh, can’t imagine that. I find the Eucharistic views of Calvinism sad and distant and less intimate and historical as well. I don’t like TULIP at all. And Evangelicals largely love it except for the good ole Lutherans and Arminians/Methodists, etc.
Where did everybody go??? I’m suddenly all alone on this thread. 🤷 Did I miss the Rapture?
Anna
 
Heh. That actually elicited a real-life guffaw from me, Anna. 😃

I’ve been scanning the forums waiting for the HOT WATER to return to my shower, since 2 of my teenage DDs saw fit to use it all up in their long, exquisitely hot baths…but couldn’t see anywhere I could interject, as I certainly don’t get the where this discussion has come from, nor where it is going.

But thanks for making me laugh. And for giving me a chance to enter into the discussion. 👍
PRmerger,

Glad I could bring some humor to your day. 🙂 I remember last year there was a thread asking what would happen if the Catholic Church disappeared tomorrow. I said there would be a whole lot of Protestants worried they missed out on the Rapture. My Catholic friends realized I was joking. Protestants didn’t find it so funny.

I don’t actually believe in the Rapture, but it was part of those old Baptist roots.

Anna
 
I’m back, Anna. I had to give my three kids a bath and then read to them. Tonight it was “The Jolly Barnyard” and “3D Bugs!” LOL…Kate cracks up at how I sing the Jolly Barnyard to them. 😛
I’d love to see you on YouTube singing the Jolly Barnyard. :rotfl::rotfl:
I agree with all that you said, Anna. There are a lot of intangiables. Will I ever agree with Lumen Gentium? Heck, maybe you’re right and it just won’t happen. I don’t know. I agree with you that the Anglican Church was a comfortable place. Why? Because I’m independent by nature. That doesn’t mean I have a rebel “I’ll do what I please!” approach but rather I see the good in many things and synthesize. It’s my nature. Perhaps it’s a curse.
I see that more as a blessing.
But I see the Orthodox love of liturgy and not spoiling a good thing. I like that. I like their consistency with the Fathers in many things.
I agree. Still think “The Primacy of Peter” is one of the most interesting books I’ve read.
I like the Atonement, soteriology, and views on original sin, redemption, concupisence, confession, the Passion, the Mass, etc.
I assume you’re talking about Catholicism here???
In the Evangelicals I like their passion for Scripture and good sermons. Anglicanism, ideally should house all the things I like here. But I see them moving too Calvinist, sadly. Perhaps I’m wrong.
I think it depends on the Diocese or even the Parish. I really haven’t seen/heard a hint of Calvinism in our Parish. But we lean more towards Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
I find Calvinism monstrous. The idea of God predestining the human race to have a few elect saved, and then God deciding to damn the rest and planning it all out with no cooperation or interaction on our parts, no give and take, no real free will in the end, just a programmed destiny that is in many ways tragic and Christ not entering into us and truly affecting a change but rather just rather putting us into an incontrovertable path, eesh, can’t imagine that. I find the Eucharistic views of Calvinism sad and distant and less intimate and historical as well. I don’t like TULIP at all. And Evangelicals largely love it except for the good ole Lutherans and Arminians/Methodists, etc.
I agree. When I think of Calvin, I also think of Jonathan Edwards’ Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. It has been written that people committed suicide after hearing Edwards preach.

I think this thread has turned into a bit of a group therapy session logging the trials of the Christian journey. I suppose the turmoil in the Anglican Communion has had an effect on all of us treading water between the Tiber and the Anglican shore.

Anna
 
I appreciate the information. I know I used “divorce” incorrectly. This is your area of expertise. If I remember correctly, weren’t such decrees given to others with much less cause than in Henry’s case? Seems there was quite a power play going on.

Anna
if Henry had not sought a Papal dispensation to marry Catherine he probably could have gotten his Decree of Nullity. But he was basically asking one Pope to over rule another Pope, in effect saying the first Pope made a mistake in determining what was a valid marriage.
 
That would have been acceptable. Popes can overrule another pope in such matters. Popes aren’t infallible in everything. Henry actually had a strong case for the annulment despite my need to pinch my nose regarding his morality with Bolyn otherwise. Popes had given decrees of nullity to other monarchs and high-profiles in the past for much less. This was largely about politics with the Holy Roman Empire and Queen Catherine’s family. GKC is far more learned in this area than my humble self but I agree generally with GKC’s arguments for Henry. I don’t think you’ll find many people who like Henry VIII (although my rector here in town thinks he was wonderful!) but many will agree that his marriage could be nullified and that many had obtained such a status for much less.
if Henry had not sought a Papal dispensation to marry Catherine he probably could have gotten his Decree of Nullity. But he was basically asking one Pope to over rule another Pope, in effect saying the first Pope made a mistake in determining what was a valid marriage.
 
Hey vsedriver,

At least your post is on topic, unlike recent posts by my good friends (not to mention names, but their initials are GKC and Gurneyhalleck1, who are having far too much fun and I’m jealous.) Ooops, I just went off topic. 😊

Back to your “schism” comment. There was a schism between Rome and the East, which did not end the same way. The Orthodox have managed to hold fast to Christian Tradition very well.

Anna
yes, they are having way too much fun!

But I was trying to stay on topic which dealt with the Anglican Church which was never associated with the Orthodox.
 
if Henry had not sought a Papal dispensation to marry Catherine he probably could have gotten his Decree of Nullity. But he was basically asking one Pope to over rule another Pope, in effect saying the first Pope made a mistake in determining what was a valid marriage.
That’s partially correct. It was Henry’s father who sought the dispensation, after toying with the idea of picking Catherine up for himself; Hank was of two minds on the subject, but was an obedient boy.

Hank Sr. was anxious to keep the marriage in the family, in order to retain the down-payment portion of Cathrine’s dowry that had been paid, plus the rest to come. Isabella and Ferdinand still wanted the marriage alliance with England that they had sent their final daughter off to procure; a northern ally, helping to surround France, everyone’s favorite enemy.

As I mentioned above, Henry sought a commonplace; a decree of nullity for reasons of state( plus, he had acquired an itch for La Boleyn). And his solution (after a long time working on the idea of using either Mary his daughter, or Henry Fitzroy, his illegitimate son, as a dynastic solution (long interesting story there), decided on the old-fashioned way, a decree of nullity. Easy.

Again, as I mentioned, he chose to base it on the Leventine Prohibition, which was as sound as would normally have been required in such circumstances, though there was a stronger one, in the probable existence of an undispensed impediment of the justice of public honesty, which Julius had overlooked (detailed technical issue). But Wolsey was the only one advocating that approach. And Henry’s causa did, indeed, poke Julius in the eye, by asserting that the impediment (Leventine Prohibition) was a divine law, not a natural law, and thus beyond the authority of anyone (ultra vires), Pope included, to dispense. There are indeed such impediments; no one can dispense an impediment of consanguinity, in the first degree, direct. And the Leventine Prohibition was sometimes thought of as of divine origin, sometimes natural. Henry’s case was a fair one, but not a slam dunk. The point of an undispensed impediment of the justice of public honesty was a stronger one, but, in the normal course of such matters, It would not have been needed. But the normal course of such matters did not include the Aunt of the Holy Roman Emperoror, and a man with a Pope well in hand.

A long and complicated story, all this. Point: Henry did not ask for something unknown in the day. His case was as strong as many, his opposition stronger than almost any could imagine. The process of decrees of nullity/impediments/dispensations was designed to allow a mix of theology and politics to govern such problems. To Henry’s dismay, it did just that.

GKC
 
As I said, GKC knows his stuff here. He could probably tell us Hank’s Social Security number, how often he trimmed his toe nails, whether he was a taste’s great or less-filling thinker, and what Hank’s pajamas looked like.😛 I’m sure Henry would’ve loved the X-Files.
That’s partially correct. It was Henry’s father who sought the dispensation, after toying with the idea of picking Catherine up for himself; Hank was of two minds on the subject, but was an obedient boy.

Hank Sr. was anxious to keep the marriage in the family, in order to retain the down-payment portion of Cathrine’s dowry that had been paid, plus the rest to come. Isabella and Ferdinand still wanted the marriage alliance with England that they had sent their final daughter off to procure; a northern ally, helping to surround France, everyone’s favorite enemy.

As I mentioned above, Henry sought a commonplace; a decree of nullity for reasons of state( plus, he had acquired an itch for La Boleyn). And his solution (after a long time working on the idea of using either Mary his daughter, or Henry Fitzroy, his illegitimate son, as a dynastic solution (long interesting story there), decided on the old-fashioned way, a decree of nullity. Easy.

Again, as I mentioned, he chose to base it on the Leventine Prohibition, which was as sound as would normally have been required in such circumstances, though there was a stronger one, in the probable existence of an undispensed impediment of the justice of public honesty, which Julius had overlooked (detailed technical issue). But Wolsey was the only one advocating that approach. And Henry’s causa did, indeed, poke Julius in the eye, by asserting that the impediment (Leventine Prohibition) was a divine law, not a natural law, and thus beyond the authority of anyone (ultra vires), Pope included, to dispense. There are indeed such impediments; no one can dispense an impediment of consanguinity, in the first degree, direct. And the Leventine Prohibition was sometimes thought of as of divine origin, sometimes natural. Henry’s case was a fair one, but not a slam dunk. The point of an undispensed impediment of the justice of public honesty was a stronger one, but, in the normal course of such matters, It would not have been needed. But the normal course of such matters did not include the Aunt of the Holy Roman Emperoror, and a man with a Pope well in hand.

A long and complicated story, all this. Point: Henry did not ask for something unknown in the day. His case was as strong as many, his opposition stronger than almost any could imagine. The process of decrees of nullity/impediments/dispensations was designed to allow a mix of theology and politics to govern such problems. To Henry’s dismay, it did just that.

GKC
 
As I said, GKC knows his stuff here. He could probably tell us Hank’s Social Security number, how often he trimmed his toe nails, whether he was a taste’s great or less-filling thinker, and what Hank’s pajamas looked like.😛 I’m sure Henry would’ve loved the X-Files.
Tastes great.

Now I need to answer a PM.

GKC
 
The schism with the Roman Catholic Church in 1534. 😃
Hey vsedriver,

At least your post is on topic, unlike recent posts by my good friends (not to mention names, but their initials are GKC and Gurneyhalleck1, who are having far too much fun and I’m jealous.) Ooops, I just went off topic. 😊

Back to your “schism” comment. There was a schism between Rome and the East, which did not end the same way. The Orthodox have managed to hold fast to Christian Tradition very well.

Anna
yes, they are having way too much fun!

But I was trying to stay on topic which dealt with the Anglican Church which was never associated with the Orthodox.
vsedriver,

I never meant to imply that the Anglican Church was ever associated with the Orthodox.

Your response to the OP’s Question: How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong? was “The schism with the Roman Catholic Church in 1534.”

I was merely pointing out that schism does not necessarily lead to what we are seeing in liberal Anglicanism. The Orthodox have preserved Christian orthodoxy very well after a schism. Though I can understand that, as a Catholic, you would argue any break with the Roman Pontiff could lead to religious/moral decline. And I would have to acknowledge that as a valid argument in many respects. Indeed the Papacy has done much to guard against heresy over the last 2,000 years. Gurney has stated that many times on the forums.

However, the Orthodox are the exception to such an argument of certain decline after schism. That’s why I said, “There was a schism between Rome and the East, which did not end the same way” (meaning the same way as liberal Anglicanism.)

Peace, 🙂
Anna
 
vsedriver,

I never meant to imply that the Anglican Church was ever associated with the Orthodox.

Your response to the OP’s Question: How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong? was “The schism with the Roman Catholic Church in 1534.”

I was merely pointing out that schism does not necessarily lead to what we are seeing in liberal Anglicanism. The Orthodox have preserved Christian orthodoxy very well after a schism. Though I can understand that, as a Catholic, you would argue any break with the Roman Pontiff could lead to religious/moral decline. And I would have to acknowledge that as a valid argument in many respects. Indeed the Papacy has done much to guard against heresy over the last 2,000 years. Gurney has stated that many times on the forums.

However, the Orthodox are the exception to such an argument of certain decline after schism. That’s why I said, “There was a schism between Rome and the East, which did not end the same way” (meaning the same way as liberal Anglicanism.)

Peace, 🙂
Anna
Not to mention, there are many conservative evangelical groups that are schismatic in the eyes of Rome, but hardly are liberal. So we can conclude the schism from Rome is not the cause of liberalism. Its something else.
 
So we can conclude the schism from Rome is not the cause of liberalism. Its something else.
Yes. It’s called sin.

Edit: I am not proclaiming that liberalism is a sin. But that divorcing oneself from the Truth that Christ proclaimed is a sin.
 
Yes. It’s called sin.

Edit: I am not proclaiming that liberalism is a sin. But that divorcing oneself from the Truth that Christ proclaimed is a sin.
PRmerger,
I do actually agree with that PR, even realizing there is much behind that statement from a Catholic perspective. 😉

Anna
 
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