How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

[gurneyhalleck1]

Just in general to the sentiment I hear in here, PR. I’m tired of the focus on those who fall short or who struggle with dogma or who are hypocritical. I just want to focus on Christ’s loving grace, mercy, and a desire to clean my own dirty laundry before I jump into ripping into others at this point. But that’s just me. I have plenty of issues I need to iron out. If the guy sitting next to me in the pew tomorrow isn’t living up to the catechism, I don’t want to discuss it but rather pray for him and do like the Imitation of Christ recommends—assume he is holier than me and that I’m the greatest sinner in the room!

As this post appeared after mine, but it also has no reference post, I am wondering if you are responding specifically to me, gurney?

 

[GKC]

I’m suprised you didn’t bust out the Motley Crue song “Smokin’ in the Boys’ Room”

This is a new saying from GKC…cliches are complicated…like history

Why don’t you use a Tony Stark Iron Man reference like “you have to run before you can walk”

Was that one Tony’s?

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

yep. (like that GKCesque short reply?) some others include:

oh, my

goodness.

uh huh

yep

oops etc…

Was that one Tony’s?

GKC

 

[PRmerger]

Just in general to the sentiment I hear in here, PR. I’m tired of the focus on those who fall short or who struggle with dogma or who are hypocritical. I just want to focus on Christ’s loving grace, mercy, and a desire to clean my own dirty laundry before I jump into ripping into others at this point. But that’s just me. I have plenty of issues I need to iron out. If the guy sitting next to me in the pew tomorrow isn’t living up to the catechism, I don’t want to discuss it but rather pray for him and do like the Imitation of Christ recommends—assume he is holier than me and that I’m the greatest sinner in the room!

There is nothing above that I can disagree with, gurney.

However…

(and you knew that “however” was coming, yes? )

one ought not mistake a criticism of “Cafeteria Catholics” with “ripping into others”. And no one here is objecting to Catholics who “struggle”. Is not “faith seeking understanding” a paradigm of Catholicism?

Cafeteria Catholicism is a non-entity. To the degree that one divorces himself from the faith of the apostles is the degree that he has divorced himself from Christ.

This is not “ripping into others” any more than Jesus was “ripping into others” when he proclaimed the Gospel.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I (and who better?) will generalize about Anglicans:

They are a motley crew.

Easy.

GKC

GKC,

You really love that term, lol

Several years ago, my dear Jewish friend (who recently passed away at age 81,) was telling me the story of the Israelites grumbling to Moses about how they had no water to drink and how he brought them out of Egypt to die of thirst in the desert. My friend paused and said, “And the Israelites were a motley crew,” and then continued the story of Moses hitting the rock. So, I suppose we Anglicans are in good company.

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Aww, are you implying GKC uses sayings more than once? Sayings like “Hank’s divorce has been a hobby of mine for years” or “history is complicated” or “declaration of nullity, not a divorce!” or “a motley crew” or “depends on which Anglicans you ask,” etc? No, he’d never do such a thing!

GKC,

You really love that term, lol

Several years ago, my dear Jewish friend (who recently passed away at age 81,) was telling me the story of the Israelites grumbling to Moses about how they had no water to drink and how he brought them out of Egypt to die of thirst in the desert. My friend paused and said, “And the Israelites were a motley crew,” and then continued the story of Moses hitting the rock. So, I suppose we Anglicans are in good company.

Anna

 

[JohnnyReb]

Really? I have met a lot of Catholics who believe in

Transubstantiation
Seven sacraments
Papal infallibility
The Church is the OHCAC
Marian dogmas
opposed to women’s ordination
pro-life
encourage eucharistic adoration
accept magisterial teachings
pro-NFP

etc. etc. I have met tons of those folks. Many of them are right here at CAF. We must be meeting different circles of Catholics, you and I.

And I think you know full well what I was referring to in my post. Anglicans, by and large, don’t agree even on the fundamentals or basics. Take the Eucharist—what is it? In my Anglican parish some saw it as transubstantiation, some as consub., some as a spiritual presence, some a symbol, some nothing, some more than one, you name it. Anglicans come from polarizingly different approaches to basic liturgical sensibilities—low evangelical to high anglo-catholic. Some reject the 39 Articles, many do not. Some believe in apostolic succession, many could care less (Sydney Australia believes in lay presidency!), some accept women’s ordination, some do not, on and on and on…they disagree about anything and everything. Now, in all seriousness, do you really think most Catholics of an orthodox nature are this contradictory and chaotic in their theology much less polity? I’m not saying all Catholics are well-catechized. For goodness sakes, that’s absurd. Do a lot of Catholics not have a clue about their religion? Yeppers. But, by and large, do most orthodox, practicing, informed Catholics have divergent views anywhere near, remotely near, what Anglicans have as far as divergence? I don’t think so…

And I say this from just analysis. I don’t say it out of anger. I love Anglicans. I honestly would love to be back in my Anglican parish right now. I loved my rector, enjoyed the fellowship, really liked the liturgy, and miss the parking!

I agree with you Gurney. Most Catholics I have met would be classifed as Cafeteria Catholics by some here at CAF. So what, they are good people and they, generally speaking, practice their faith with sincerity and love the church. I find that at times its more a problem of inadaquate catechesis or the fact that certain people whose roots come from Catholic countries are Catholic because that is what their culture dictates. So what, wasn’t Jesus about taking the plank out of your own eye before asking your brother to remove the spec from his? I think so. Sometimes in apologetics there are alot of people with planks in their eyes picking at lot of specs on others.

Of course there are the devote Catholics who accept all church teachings without thinking twice and are very confident about the church’s teachings. Good for them. I too have met many and interacted with many here at CAF, and I have no reason to believe that they are other than sincere in what they believe and the faith they practice. Yes, they can test my patience sometimes, but I’m sure I can do the same for them.

Anglicanism certainly is a diverse lot. That doesn’t bother me so much-the body of Christ is diverse in that sense-but rather the backbiting towards disagreeing Anglican groups towards each other about these things.

 

[1234]

So, if you please, when you are discussing Catholics who dissent from Catholic teaching, please acknowledge that they are, essentially, protestant in their theology.

They may be. I don’t discuss theology with them. I simply am reporting the evidence that many Catholics either are non-compliant (contraception) or don’t support their church very much (money) or don’t attend a required function (weekly mass).

If you regard my postings as hostile, I am simply reporting also how the Catholic Church (there!) is perceived outside of CAF.

 

[Anna_Scott]

GKC,

You really love that term, lol

Several years ago, my dear Jewish friend (who recently passed away at age 81,) was telling me the story of the Israelites grumbling to Moses about how they had no water to drink and how he brought them out of Egypt to die of thirst in the desert. My friend paused and said, “And the Israelites were a motley crew,” and then continued the story of Moses hitting the rock. So, I suppose we Anglicans are in good company.

Anna

Aww, are you implying GKC uses sayings more than once? Sayings like “Hank’s divorce has been a hobby of mine for years” or “history is complicated” or “declaration of nullity, not a divorce!” or “a motley crew” or “depends on which Anglicans you ask,” etc? No, he’d never do such a thing!

Gurney,
I was doing more than “implying.” lol Good thing our good friend GKC has a sense of humor.

Anna

 

[1234]

Jhareck is not showing paranoia, he’s offended by your tone and generalizations, as am I. You demonstrate an elitist tone that is unfair. And your statement here that Americans “get away with” so much because of “purse strings” is disgusting. Americans don’t just disregard morality and get away with it for $$$. I don’t know where you are getting these broad-brush paintings you throw on the canvass. I have told you that this is offensive, Jharek has said the same, Anna Scott isn’t happy with these statements, so you might take a hint from the posters in here. We all respect Anglicans. I was Anglican for years and cherish much of my time I spent there. I still read the Book of Common Prayer, at least parts of it, for inspiration at times, I know some great Anglicans (especially in here), and I disagree with many of the theological positions of Anglicanism and where they are going right now as a worldwide body. But I don’t draw conclusions that they’re all insincere phonies as you are doing with Catholics. I know phony Catholics but also know a TON of good, orthodox, practicing Catholics. Catholics are sinners like Anglicans. We both fall short. To judge the Catholic Church by the actions of sinners within it is unfair.

Also, it is not the RCC or Roman Catholic Church, it is called “The Catholic Church.” No Roman in the title. There are Latin Rite Catholics, Eastern Byzantine, Maronite, and a bunch of others, but the title of our Church is the Catholic Church.

We all want you here 1234, but what you’re saying is troublesome and hurtful, please don’t draw generalizations with your brethren in Christ on the Catholic side of things. God bless you.

NO one implied that Americans disregard morality and get away with it. But there is no doubt that Rome has responded to the dissent in the Catholic Church in the US with immense patience because of the tremendous importance of the Catholic Church in the US to the Catholic Church in the world at large. Anyone denying this is being very naive.

The elitist tone that you so condemn is summarized very nicely in the title of this thread.“How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?” Once again, as in the thread regarding female clergy in PROTESTANT denominations, posters are discussing issues which should not concern them, and on which many of them are largely ignorant.

 

[Anna_Scott]

They may be. I don’t discuss theology with them. I simply am reporting the evidence that many Catholics either are non-compliant (contraception) or don’t support their church very much (money) or don’t attend a required function (weekly mass).

If you regard my postings as hostile, I am simply reporting also how the Catholic Church (there!) is perceived outside of CAF.

How did this thread go from discussing how us poor Anglicans have gone wrong to “beat up on the Catholic Church”? I don’t think this is accomplishing any good purpose.

1234, Maybe you should start a thread entitled, “Where has the Catholic Church Gone Wrong.” Then at least your agenda regarding Catholics would be placed in an honest format.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .The elitist tone that you so condemn is summarized very nicely in the title of this thread.“How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?” Once again, as in the thread regarding female clergy in PROTESTANT denominations, posters are discussing issues which should not concern them, and on which many of them are largely ignorant.

1234, the Catholic OP is asking a question that is very much alive within the Anglican Communion.

What exactly caused the current crisis in the Anglican church and the growing toleration of same-sex relationships and their being seen as compatible with Scripture.

There is a crisis in the Anglican Communion. This thread has been as much about Anglicans dealing with the issues creating the crisis, as about answering Catholic questions on the crisis. Sometimes these discussions get heated, no doubt. Most of us are very passionate about what we believe. But, at least we are talking.

You have no right to decide what issues should concern posters. We must talk to one another in the hope and spirit of Christian unity.

Peace,
Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I disagree, 1234. Your posts do reflect that. You are saying that Americans don’t follow the Church, march to the beat of their own drummers, but because the Vatican wants $$$ for its coffers, it puts up with it. That’s what your post said basically. I disagree.

And I am weary of hearing how the United States is somehow the only nation that is falling to the wayside morally. My wife and I are appauled at how much cohabitation, out of wedlock births, and acceptance of homosexuality there is in the Philippines when we go there (my wife’s home country). The same is true of Spain, where there is a secular vs. religious culture. The Holy Father indicated early in his papacy that Europe has lost its way and needs re-evangelization. Mexico and other countries south of the border are into same-sex marriages and contraception, on and on. So, the U.S. is not alone in a loss of moral fiber. The whole world, Protestant and Catholic, east and west, north and south, are under a veil of evil from Satan, tempted, surrounded by a desire to dehumanize the dignity of each person through abortion, warped sexuality, faithlessness, worship of technology over God, materialism, and the whole “if it feels good, do it!” philosophy. We’re all in the mess together.

And I guess you can count me as naive then because I don’t think the Catholic Church turns a blind eye to the U.S. for $$$ purposes. Put me in the naive bracket.

Also in the other thread, those posters have every right to criticize “ordination” of women. It’s an ongoing issue that is of great concern. And we need to constantly remind ourselves why it is heterodox and evil so that we laity will stay faithful to the Church’s teachings on it and not fall under the feminism spell and leave Catholicism over such an issue. At my old Anglican parish there are people who went there JUST BECAUSE they are in favor of women’s ordination. You can imagine the disappointment these liberals felt when they arrived and the ACNA diocese here forbids WO! I don’t think most posters are “largely ignorant” of the issue, 1234. I notice a theme with your posts—Catholic ignorance and slothful disregard, peasants, uneducated, out of it, etc. That’s why your posts are drawing the ire that you’re having to defend. Catholics don’t like being put in the Gomer Pyle category, who would?

NO one implied that Americans disregard morality and get away with it. But there is no doubt that Rome has responded to the dissent in the Catholic Church in the US with immense patience because of the tremendous importance of the Catholic Church in the US to the Catholic Church in the world at large. Anyone denying this is being very naive.

The elitist tone that you so condemn is summarized very nicely in the title of this thread.“How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?” Once again, as in the thread regarding female clergy in PROTESTANT denominations, posters are discussing issues which should not concern them, and on which many of them are largely ignorant.

 

[1234]

I disagree, 1234. Your posts do reflect that. You are saying that Americans don’t follow the Church, march to the beat of their own drummers, but because the Vatican wants $$$ for its coffers, it puts up with it. That’s what your post said basically. I disagree.

And I am weary of hearing how the United States is somehow the only nation that is falling to the wayside morally. My wife and I are appauled at how much cohabitation, out of wedlock births, and acceptance of homosexuality there is in the Philippines when we go there (my wife’s home country). The same is true of Spain, where there is a secular vs. religious culture. The Holy Father indicated early in his papacy that Europe has lost its way and needs re-evangelization. Mexico and other countries south of the border are into same-sex marriages and contraception, on and on. So, the U.S. is not alone in a loss of moral fiber. The whole world, Protestant and Catholic, east and west, north and south, are under a veil of evil from Satan, tempted, surrounded by a desire to dehumanize the dignity of each person through abortion, warped sexuality, faithlessness, worship of technology over God, materialism, and the whole “if it feels good, do it!” philosophy. We’re all in the mess together.

And I guess you can count me as naive then because I don’t think the Catholic Church turns a blind eye to the U.S. for $$$ purposes. Put me in the naive bracket.

Also in the other thread, those posters have every right to criticize “ordination” of women. It’s an ongoing issue that is of great concern. And we need to constantly remind ourselves why it is heterodox and evil so that we laity will stay faithful to the Church’s teachings on it and not fall under the feminism spell and leave Catholicism over such an issue. At my old Anglican parish there are people who went there JUST BECAUSE they are in favor of women’s ordination. You can imagine the disappointment these liberals felt when they arrived and the ACNA diocese here forbids WO! I don’t think most posters are “largely ignorant” of the issue, 1234. I notice a theme with your posts—Catholic ignorance and slothful disregard, peasants, uneducated, out of it, etc. That’s why your posts are drawing the ire that you’re having to defend. Catholics don’t like being put in the Gomer Pyle category, who would?

I do not mean to equate dissent with immorality. The US church has some loud, prominently dissenters which are a pain to Rome, which, to me, (but not to others, apparently) aren’t advocating immorality. Somewhere I heard that the Pope (BXVI) complained that the US Catholic Church represents a (minority of) the world’s Catholics, but takes up 90% of his time! Maybe this (forced) attention to the US church reflects the monetary support of world Catholicism by the US church, maybe not.

Regarding sin and immorality in the US, no one has a monopoly on sin and evil. However, you could argue that in some ways, such as charitable donations, Americans are actually ahead of others. And we have a democracy and support the Bill of Rights. And we’re not as class-ridden as many other societies. However, using the seven deadly sins as a guide, we’re as bad as others in most categories.

I understand that some Anglicans really, really oppose women’s ordination, find it revolting, actually. You among them, apparently. This is understandable. Other Anglicans don’t. Other Protestant denominations, well-versed in scripture, apparently have found ample justification for it. I think that it’s too bad to leave the AC because of it, however, and join a denomination (or Church) where one might have other objections, maybe at least as serious. This does not describe you, as you’re a Catholic. I have read that some Catholics, mainly in the UK, have had some reservations about converts to Catholicism who converted because of women clergy and the acceptance of openly (vs. covertly) homosexual clergy in the AC. What about all the rest of it?

I doubt many Catholics are going to leave their church over women’s ordination. Catholics would like having more * priests*, mainly. I suspect that many favor *married men *as priests, rather than women as priests. Neither will happen any time soon, certainly not the latter.

 

[PRmerger]

They may be. I don’t discuss theology with them. I simply am reporting the evidence that many Catholics either are non-compliant (contraception) or don’t support their church very much (money) or don’t attend a required function (weekly mass).

This is an irrelevant point, as no Catholic here has ever proclaimed anything contrary to that.

That there are many clueless Joe-Catholic-pew-fillers is incontrovertible.

If you regard my postings as hostile, I am simply reporting also how the Catholic Church (there!) is perceived outside of CAF.

This is interesting, but, really, it’s as irrelevant as saying, “I am simply reporting how adults perceive Justin Bieber.”

 

[VeniEmmanuel]

Any Anglican who says there is no crises is being disengenuous. There is a huge crises. Right now there is a meeting of Primates (national Bishops) in the Anglican Communion that mmany primates have refused to attend. The Episcopal Church has been threatened with non-voting, observer status within the communion. Many parishes and even diocese are breaking off in the West, especially NA, or looking for outside episcoplal oversight.

These things are a big deal.

What are the problems. There may be a few things.

One I think is that the things that are meant to hold the communion together ultimately have rather blunt teeth. The Communion has always allowed a lot of variation in some areas of belief. The tendency is to be very forgiving or flexible in this. When worldview that are ultimately not compatible came up, they were not immediately recognized, probably because of this training to allow as much diversity as possible rather than search for orthodoxy. (This is a perhaps ultimately part of Anglicanisms Western heritage - what is the least think that is acceptable, rather than what is the fullness of the faith.)

There has always been a tension, as gurney pointed out, between more Protestant ideas and Catholic ones in Anglicanism. But in the past, even the Catholicswere able to see the Protestant Anglicans as having validity, because the low church Anglicans still were very attached to a strict Biblical Christianity. That stopped them from really going outside what the catholics could consider as acceptable, (and vice versa really). But once things like women`s ordination, or lay presidency arrived, then that failed. More catholic Anglicans cannot support that.

And so it comes down in the end in a real way to the view of scripture. An understanding of scripture as simple an inspired, but not an authoritative document. Really a loss of confidence - due largely to Higher Criticism - in it`s ability to teach truth - allowed factions within Anglicanism to go outside of what was acceptable to the other factions.

This was followed by changes in the form of the liturgy, following the Catholic model. In fact, the embracing of the attempt to bring the liturgy back to its primitive forms was probably an attempt to find the sure foundation that had been lost in Scripture. But it probably made the problem worse, because the new liturgies were not up to the same standard doctrinally or didactically, and not all Anglicans accepted the new forms, and the new forms allowed substantial variation - so different Anglicans could be using substantially different forms of the liturgy. (Before, even where they were stylistically diverse, the text of the liturgy was very similar, and it was the primary lens for Anglican thought on dogma and doctrine. It is no longer able to serve that function.)

Plenty of the more ‘catholic’ Anglicans support the ordination of women and homosexuals. This is not a Catholic vs. Protestant issue. It is a liberal vs. conservative issue.

And to the OP, a large part of the crisis of the Anglican Church has been caused by liberalism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think it’s more complicated than that. You’re right on one hand that there are high church crowds in Anglicanism that are ok with W.O. They’re definitely around, plenty of them. But evangelicals are more apt to be open to it as they have a lower view of holy orders and the sacerdotal priesthood side of things. But as far as “liberal vs. conservative” that is a relative phraseology in Anglicanism. Take ACNA in North America. Episcopalians would consider ++Bob Duncan as an evil conservative and yet look at how Duncan feels about W.O. He’s a huge fan! And there are other “conservatives” like Roseberry and his Plano group who are big fans of W.O. as well and yet they’re anti everything else. In Africa “conservative” bishops in some parts are allowing WO but then again guys like Archbishop Akinola are opposed to it and he is much more evangelical than catholic in his views. So in this case, an evangelical is anti-WO. But then again +Jack Iker in Texas is anti-WO and +Schofield here in San Joaquin is anti-WO and both lean catholic…so it’s complicated. The whole issue is. Anglicans have such a mixed spectrum and poor oversight in general as well as a terrible ability to come to consensus that this stuff happens this way as a result. Catholicism has the magisterium/papacy and a strong central authority that wipes this issue off the table, period. Orthodoxy, out of their steadfast respect for tradition and theology in this area wouldn’t even discuss it. But Anglicans, even the ‘conservatives’ of Akinola’s type say “we’re opposed to W.O. but we promise to revisit the issue at a later date…” which is disturbing. ACNA has agreed to just not talk about it at all, which is a real mind-bender…So I think the politics, mindsets, and individualism that is present in the Anglican Communion creates the perfect culture for such heterodoxy to spring up, sadly. Conservative, liberal, that doesn’t always apply. And from a Catholic or Orthodox vantage point, even the most conservative Anglicans are really still very liberal most of the time.

Plenty of the more ‘catholic’ Anglicans support the ordination of women and homosexuals. This is not a Catholic vs. Protestant issue. It is a liberal vs. conservative issue.

And to the OP, a large part of the crisis of the Anglican Church has been caused by liberalism.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Can we all sign onto a pledge never again to mention Justin Bieber on CAF!? I need Dramamine now

This is interesting, but, really, it’s as irrelevant as saying, “I am simply reporting how adults perceive Justin Bieber.”

 

[The_Sentry]

Can we all sign onto a pledge never again to mention Justin Bieber on CAF!? I need Dramamine now

Signed.

 

[PRmerger]

Can we all sign onto a pledge never again to mention Justin Bieber on CAF!? I need Dramamine now

I promise!

http://justinbieberbiography.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Justin_Bieber_bio.jpg