How have lukewarm, lapsed, compromising Catholics affected your faith walk?

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Tantum_ergo said:
JM

Did the OP ever once suggest that he or anyone else should ‘buttonhole’ people or bludgeon them with all their failings?
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Nope - I was answering Mijoy, who was wondering, if he can’t judge people, how is he going to know whom he should button-hole.
 
But again, JM, I have carefully looked through Mijoy’s posts and I saw nothing about ‘buttonholing’ people.

What I saw was a question about “how can we evangelize to people if there is no way of judging who needs it?”

Well, of course, we all in a sense need evangelization. But just as in a hospital, there is a need for triage. Some people are in very serious situations, and not to speak to them in order to help them could result in their damnation. We are told, not just to "love the Lord our God, but to ‘love our neighbor as ourself.’ Loving one’s neighbor does not mean letting one’s neighbor go merrily to hell rather than ‘judge him’. Mind you, I am not looking around in order to feel holier-than-thou–I certainly believe I am in need of help myself 😃 -but IMO there is a very subtle devilish snare in the inverted sort of “how can I judge others, doesn’t that make me a Pharisee” mindset that will if unchecked lead to people not even attempting to help anybody lest they be perceived as “insensitive”, “judgmental”, etc.

We are not talking about 'buttonholing" and bludgeoning with failures, but about sharing our love of Christ and our love of each other by trying to help each other to salvation, even when it is difficult, or unpopular, even when it might lead to hurt feelings–when those hurt feelings are a byproduct of a maladjustment.

Take somebody who is depressed, for example, and tries to commit suicide. You save the person, who then berates you for ‘interfering’. That person’s feelings are certainly hurt. . .but are you at fault for saving his life? Should you stand back and let him jump off a cliff when a lot more than his ‘feelings’ will be hurt?

In other words, are we trying to give somebody temporary ‘happy feelings’ in this life, without lifting a finger to intervene in eternal misery and damnation?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
But again, JM, I have carefully looked through Mijoy’s posts and I saw nothing about ‘buttonholing’ people.

What I saw was a question about “how can we evangelize to people if there is no way of judging who needs it?”
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Meaning that his idea of evangelizing is to pick someone out of the crowd. Presumably to straighten them out about their life.

Three and only three classes of people are allowed to do that to you. Your Confessor or pastor. Your parents. And your teachers. If you are not that person’s priest, parent, or teacher, then it’s not your job to do that.
Well, of course, we all in a sense need evangelization. But just as in a hospital, there is a need for triage.
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And a need to leave the triage to the people responsible - trained doctors and nurses. Random passers-by don’t go into the emergency unit and start doing the triage.

Our job as lay evangelists is to be a living witness - it means that we keep our lamp out at all times.
Take somebody who is depressed, for example, and tries to commit suicide. You save the person, who then berates you for ‘interfering’.
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NO, you don’t - if your friend is threatening suicide, you call the suicide hotline, or you call 9-1-1, but you do not take the situation into your own inexpert hands and try to solve it by yourself. That would be crazy and dangerous, since they not only might succeed in committing suicide, they could take you with them.

No - and if the person is already standing on the railiing of the bridge, you call 9-1-1 and you follow the instructions they give you, to the very letter. Assuming you actually want to save the person’s life, of course.

The same with your friend who seems to “need evangelization.” Mention it to the person’s priest, and let the experts take it from there.

Our job is to show the joy and happiness that comes from following God’s way.
 
Thank you Tantum ergo I thought it was me, I read all these posts and I thought it was me. I could not figure out what it was that setter said that was so wrong. I was just getting more and more confused each post I read untill yours popped up.
 
setter said:
how lukewarm, lapsed, compromising Catholics have either positively or negatively impacted their faith walk?
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Since this is past tense, I’ll mention my past. When I was younger, I frequently absorbed or copied the attitudes of those around me on issues that I didn’t want to think too much about at the time. If my aunt said that rodeo riders were dedicated and that she admired them for that, then I became more inclined to admire dedication wherever I encountered it and also to admire rodeo riders. If my uncle said derisive things about how Catholics put down women and didn’t care about real people, then I became more inclined to think that how women are treated is a decisive issue in evaluating a group and to think that Catholics got that issue wrong. It cut both ways, for good and for ill. If I cared strongly about the issue already, I was less inclined to passively accept the information my relatives doled out. I was more critical.

Some things I picked up from other Catholics (of any stamp):

talking in the nave/church/pew area
thinking all should be able to do any task
thinking the Church leadership is out of touch
making special reverence to the host in the monstrance
kneeling to pray before mass
thinking Catholic religious education is inadequate
thinking real life Catholics aren’t supposed to try to be like the saints (by that I mean be super devout and pray a lot and be other-worldly or something…it’s a vague thing)
 
jmcrae said:
Nope - I was answering Mijoy, who was wondering, if he can’t judge people, how is he going to know whom he should button-hole.
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Actually I probably took the OPs question too far with my post. First, I’d never evangelize in any way other then simply living my faith as I choose to live it as your reaponse to my post suggests. I simply couldn’t ever see myself imposing my beliefs on anyone else unless they explicitly asked (other then my children). I’m probably the furthest thing from a street corner evangelist that one could be.

But I do notice others degree of orthodoxy (if you will). I think this is more in line with the OPs question. I can’t help but notice when a catholic appears to not give thier faith any thought. “Noticing” I would not equate with judging. Passing opinion on what I notice, would be judging. Being negatively affected by what I notice, I would not equate with judging.

Maybe this is more clear.
 
Mijoy2 said:
First, I’d never evangelize in any way other then simply living my faith as I choose to live it as your reaponse to my post suggests. I simply couldn’t ever see myself imposing my beliefs on anyone else unless they explicitly asked (other then my children).
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Just yesterday, I did something out of character for me, so I don’t know how to evaluate it. A Catholic freely told me that they always skip on Easter and Christmas, but that they go to mass on the other days. They said they hate going when they can’t sit in their usual spot and also the crowds bother them. I suggested that they try the small parish down the road a few miles and that it might be less crowded on those days. I indicated that it would be good not to skip. I don’t know why I did. It bothers me.

And no, I did not use words like “sin” or anything, nor did I think them.
 
Pug said:
Just yesterday, I did something out of character for me, so I don’t know how to evaluate it. A Catholic freely told me that they always skip on Easter and Christmas, but that they go to mass on the other days. They said they hate going when they can’t sit in their usual spot and also the crowds bother them. I suggested that they try the small parish down the road a few miles and that it might be less crowded on those days. I indicated that it would be good not to skip. I don’t know why I did. It bothers me.

And no, I did not use words like “sin” or anything, nor did I think them.
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I think you handled it just right. He or she asked you your opinion: you didn’t hunt that person down to give it to them, whether they wanted it or not.

And you made a very appropriate suggestion to them. They’ll probably follow through.

This is what I mean by letting your light shine at all times - you were asked an honest question, and you gave an honest answer.
 
👍 Well, from my point of view, this very post was an answer to my prayer so thank you for bringing it up better than I could have posted.

My entire family is Catholic and I see them “doing the motions” in Mass but yet my mother still believes abortion is ok, birth control is necessary for some… and there’s a few others but that gets my point across.

This notion hurts me yet makes me stronger. I hurt because I know it’s not right to have these opinions and still call yourself a Catholic. Yet it makes me stronger because the more I discuss these issues and give her proof, the stronger I become about confronting my own past yet being able to stand up for the Truth.

I tend to correct others outside my family much easier and their lapse/lack of Catholicity doesn’t seem to effect me. I know myself well enough that if I hung out with them on a regular basis, I’d start to question myself or start to lower my standards. Therefore I don’t hang out with them.

Thank you for posting this question. Now I get to read through all the posts and hope to learn a few things!
 
Always wondered why Catholics looked so glum and unhappy in church. Now I know. They were “serious” Catholics.
 
tamccrackine said:
My entire family is Catholic and I see them “doing the motions” in Mass but yet my mother still believes abortion is ok, birth control is necessary for some… and there’s a few others but that gets my point across.

This notion hurts me yet makes me stronger. I hurt because I know it’s not right to have these opinions and still call yourself a Catholic. Yet it makes me stronger because the more I discuss these issues and give her proof, the stronger I become about confronting my own past yet being able to stand up for the Truth.
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Does having opinions really affect you as a Catholic? I thought it was actions that mattered and only clergy had to give actual positive assent to all teachings. So that a woman could have the opinion that artificial birth control was OK and not commit a sin, but would commit a sin if she used artificial birth control or advised others to use artificial birth control. Is it a sin for a lay person to even hold an opinion that differs from the Church?
 
setter said:
This is more of a reflective question for serious Catholics regarding how lukewarm, lapsed, compromising Catholics have either positively or negatively impacted their faith walk? From my experience the aforementioned Catholics do not give much thought as to how their lower faith standards affect those attempting to live out their Catholic faith seriously.
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As I live my faith pretty boldly, I find it gets a bit lonely sometimes. In conversation, I might find myself on the receiving end of the stink eye if I decline an invite to coffee because I already have a date with Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. If I am out with friends for dinner on a Friday night and order shrimp when I was advised of the “best steak in town”, I’m likely to mention that I still hold to the passe tradition of abstinence from meat on Friday’s as a way to witness. You can only imagine the reaction. Now, I understand that this doesn’t make me a “serious” Catholic, (could be considered a “nutty” Catholic). And it doesn’t make those who don’t partipate in these practices “compromising”. But it can make me feel lonely because I have no other human with which to share the extreme joy I have in my heart.

If I understand setters original intent with his post, then I believe that Catholics who loudly and proudly dissent from the Church are a challenge and reminder. We have probably all been there at one time or another and it is only through grace and the prayers of others that we find our way to the truth. Nothing I have done has brought me all the way home: The Lord alone does it all.
 
a_cermak said:
Does having opinions really affect you as a Catholic? I thought it was actions that mattered and only clergy had to give actual positive assent to all teachings. So that a woman could have the opinion that artificial birth control was OK and not commit a sin, but would commit a sin if she used artificial birth control or advised others to use artificial birth control. Is it a sin for a lay person to even hold an opinion that differs from the Church?
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I think you’re being a bit on the facetious side of this issue… If you hold the opinion that ABC and abortion is ok, you are more than likely inclined to either do it/ use it or advise a friend (possibly even Catholic) to do it/ use it simply because your “opinion” sees nothing wrong with it. Does that make sense?

It’s ok to have an opinion, but on the more serious things the Catholic Church is so obviously dead set against… THAT’s where my problem lies. I’m not talking about my best friends’ nail color here, she wants red, I want coral. My mothers’ OPINION is that abortion is ok. My mothers’ OPINION is that birth control is ok. Both of those opinions are directly against what the Church teaches. So what other teachings of the Church does her opinion go against? (And sometimes I wonder why I grew up not knowing alot about the Church and what She teaches… well, now I know why)

I don’t go out bashing people on their opinions. But when they express one that is in direct contrast to what the Church teaches, yes… I will try to correct them as gently as I can. And trust me when I say if they get stubborn, I can play that game too.

We’re called to help each other… so how do you know you’re doing something wrong, or even if your opinion is wrongly formed, if no one says anything to you? 👍
 
FCEGM said:
My faith certainly hasn’t been lessened by encountering such Catholics; if anything, it’s made me pray and study more to be strengthened in my faith and acts as an encouragement to pray for those whose faith is weak (as I hope the stronger ones pray for me!). One area that comes to mind, though, is the liturgical life of the parish wherein one too often finds the homily rarely challenging all hearers to live in greater fidelity to Christ and His Church; there seems, rather, to be a hesitation to “call a spade a spade” in case someone gets his or her tender feelings hurt.
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AMEN AMEN 👍
 
I for one am grateful for having been “buttonholed” by an evangelistic Catholic friend. How can I ever thank her enough for inviting me to a Catholic Bible study so that I could eventually meet my God in the Eucharist. I spent most of my life thinking Catholics were mindless sheep, full of superstitious and idolatrous ideas. The dear Catholic mother of seven whose home was the location of the Bible study prays the Rosary with her children every day. She taught me and my children to pray the Rosary and the Liturgy of the Hours. She taught me to trust in God. She made me feel honored as a Protestant, yet she arranged to have a Catholic priest come to her home to answer my question about the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she didn’t stop inviting me, for several years, until I finally entered an RCIA class just to satisfy myself once and for all that the Catholic Church was not for me…But then one day I read Pope John Paul II’s Letter to Women, his love letter from Jesus to the women of the world, and I couldn’t resist such a beautiful invitation, wrapped in the love of God.

That dear, fervent, serious and joyful Catholic mother changed my life forever, thanks to the grace of God.

I suppose I was like the lapsed Catholic, only it was my ancestors who made the decision to leave the Church. As the lapsed party, I was like the poor, blind beggar, calling out to Jesus. My Catholic friend allowed Jesus to use her to call me closer to him. I agree with those of you who said we need to preach with our lives. That’s an important beginning. But we don’t have to be priests or trained catechists to invite a non-Catholic or non-practicing Catholic to join us for the Liturgy of the Hours or the Rosary. I think that we all need each other, rich and poor (materially and spiritually). In Heaven we’ll all find out just how God graciously used us (with our consent) to help each other.
 
with all this talk about the definition of “serious” then I guess CAF is in error for calling their voters guide for “serious” Catholics (of even their one of Christians) in error?

SOMEone has to define what a “serious” Catholic is (we all know what a "cafeteria Catholic is and what they represent), otherwise we’d be nothing more than the people that are always telling us “Well, religion has nothing to do with it. It’s all about your relationship with Christ” yet they’re missing the boat entirely. Eh? :o
 
Pug said:
Just yesterday, I did something out of character for me, so I don’t know how to evaluate it. A Catholic freely told me that they always skip on Easter and Christmas, but that they go to mass on the other days. They said they hate going when they can’t sit in their usual spot and also the crowds bother them. I suggested that they try the small parish down the road a few miles and that it might be less crowded on those days. I indicated that it would be good not to skip. I don’t know why I did. It bothers me.

And no, I did not use words like “sin” or anything, nor did I think them.
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I second Jmcrae, I think you handled it perfectly.
 
I resembled this description until about 30 years ago. My faith was at it’s lowest. I went to mass on Christmas and Easter, and about the only thing I prayed for was not dying and going to you know where.

In the back of your mind you barely believe in anything. I was not an atheist, barely Christian but definitely not Catholic as far as any of the sacraments goes.

I was a ‘good’ person and fairly charitable, but I did not practice my faith and disagreed with some of the Churches teachings. I was adrift and searching for who knows what. I started reading about other faiths, both Christian and non-Christian. At one point I wanted definitive proof that God exists and that there was something to look forward to after life.

But nothing I read about rang true, until I started reading about some of the saints and their miracles. St. Anthony, Padre Pio, St Bernadette, and Our Lady bought me back to my faith… There’s no place like home…There’s no place like home !
 
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