G
Glorthac
Guest
So last week I brought up the state of the dead, one of their favorite topics. They say when you die, you cease to exist, your soul does not continue on (however, 144,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses will, but that’s another topic).
I said in the Old Testament, when you died, your soul went to Sheol, a place where you spiritually slept. In the New Testament, when Christ died, He descended into Sheol, and raised the righteous to Heaven, conquering death by death.
He brought up Ecclesiastes 9:5:
For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
He said this showed when you die, you cease to exist. I argued this says when, in the Old Testament, you died, you went to Sheol, and spiritually sleep, and therefore you didn’t know anything, because you were sleeping. However, when Christ died, He raised the dead to Heaven, and therefore this verse no longer applies to modern-day situations.
I then brought up Deuteronomy 32:22:
A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains.
I said that I know the word ‘hell’ in our translation is Sheol in the Hebrew. But then I reasoned to him, if the fire of God’s wrath burns the earth with her produce, and the foundations of the mountains, which are both places, why would we understand ‘the lowest hell’, Sheol, to be not a literal place, but a condition? And how could God’s wrath burn in a condition of the dead?
He had no answer.
I then brought up Job 11:8:
**He is higher than heaven, and what wilt thou do? he is deeper than hell, and how wilt thou know? **
I asked if this was talking about God, the missionary said yes. I then said, this is comparing God and His Wisdom being higher than heaven, a place. It then says God and His Wisdom is deeper (meaning more plenteous and vast) than Sheol. But if Heaven is a place, and God is higher than it, wouldn’t Sheol be a place, and God is more vast than it? And how can God be more vast than a condition of the dead? Doesn’t this show Sheol is a place, and not a condition of the dead?
I then brought up Psalm 85:13:
For thy mercy is great towards me: and thou hast delivered my soul out of the lower hell.
I then asked him to show me their translation of Psalm 85:13 (though they have it as Psalm 86:13):
For your loving-kindness is great toward me, And you have delivered my soul out of She´ol, its lowest place.
I said, if Sheol is a condition of the dead, and not an actual place, how can Sheol have a lowest place? Doesn’t this show Sheol is a place, and not a condition?
Again, no answer.
Lastly, I brought up Proverbs 15:24:
The path of life is above for the wise, that he may decline from the lowest hell.
Their translation says:
The path of life is upward to one acting with insight, in order to turn away from She´ol down below.
I said, how can Sheol be ‘down below’ if Sheol isn’t a place, but a condition of the dead? Doesn’t this show it’s a place?
He had no answer, so he sat there, and said 'I can’t believe the Bible would say this!"
Obviously, these verses have a real affect on the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Write them down, and keep these verses prepared, if you ever run into a Jehovah’s Witness missionary.
I said in the Old Testament, when you died, your soul went to Sheol, a place where you spiritually slept. In the New Testament, when Christ died, He descended into Sheol, and raised the righteous to Heaven, conquering death by death.
He brought up Ecclesiastes 9:5:
For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
He said this showed when you die, you cease to exist. I argued this says when, in the Old Testament, you died, you went to Sheol, and spiritually sleep, and therefore you didn’t know anything, because you were sleeping. However, when Christ died, He raised the dead to Heaven, and therefore this verse no longer applies to modern-day situations.
I then brought up Deuteronomy 32:22:
A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains.
I said that I know the word ‘hell’ in our translation is Sheol in the Hebrew. But then I reasoned to him, if the fire of God’s wrath burns the earth with her produce, and the foundations of the mountains, which are both places, why would we understand ‘the lowest hell’, Sheol, to be not a literal place, but a condition? And how could God’s wrath burn in a condition of the dead?
He had no answer.
I then brought up Job 11:8:
**He is higher than heaven, and what wilt thou do? he is deeper than hell, and how wilt thou know? **
I asked if this was talking about God, the missionary said yes. I then said, this is comparing God and His Wisdom being higher than heaven, a place. It then says God and His Wisdom is deeper (meaning more plenteous and vast) than Sheol. But if Heaven is a place, and God is higher than it, wouldn’t Sheol be a place, and God is more vast than it? And how can God be more vast than a condition of the dead? Doesn’t this show Sheol is a place, and not a condition of the dead?
I then brought up Psalm 85:13:
For thy mercy is great towards me: and thou hast delivered my soul out of the lower hell.
I then asked him to show me their translation of Psalm 85:13 (though they have it as Psalm 86:13):
For your loving-kindness is great toward me, And you have delivered my soul out of She´ol, its lowest place.
I said, if Sheol is a condition of the dead, and not an actual place, how can Sheol have a lowest place? Doesn’t this show Sheol is a place, and not a condition?
Again, no answer.
Lastly, I brought up Proverbs 15:24:
The path of life is above for the wise, that he may decline from the lowest hell.
Their translation says:
The path of life is upward to one acting with insight, in order to turn away from She´ol down below.
I said, how can Sheol be ‘down below’ if Sheol isn’t a place, but a condition of the dead? Doesn’t this show it’s a place?
He had no answer, so he sat there, and said 'I can’t believe the Bible would say this!"
Obviously, these verses have a real affect on the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Write them down, and keep these verses prepared, if you ever run into a Jehovah’s Witness missionary.
