How I stumped a Jehovah's Witness missionary multiple times!

[Glorthac]

I’ve been discussing religion with a Jehovah’s Witness missionary once-a-week for several months now, and I’ve stumped him so bad he could only pause, smile, and say ‘I don’t know, how could the Bible say that?’

Here’s my stumper on the Trinity. 1 Corinthians 8:6:
Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

At first this would seem to say the Father alone is God, and the Son alone is Lord. But I asked the Jehovah’s Witness “Is the Father Lord?” I then quoted Deuteronomy 10:17:
Because the Lord your God he is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords

He then agreed that the Father is Lord.

So I then asked, “If in 1 Cor 8:6 the Father is both God and Lord, could the Son be both God and Lord?” He said yes, it is possible.

But then I brought up Romans 11:36:
For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.

I then asked him who Rom 11:36 is talking about. He looked up a few verses, and we both agreed this is talking about God.

Here’s the stumper part!

I then compared the Greek of 1 Cor 8:6 to the Greek of Rom 11:6:
1 Cor 8:6 - ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ
Rom 11:6 - ὅτι ἐξ αὐτοῦ καὶ δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν τὰ πάντα αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν

I then showed him, 1 Cor 8:6 says the Father is the one ‘out of’ (Greek ἐξ) whom are all things, and the Son is the one ‘through’ (Greek δι’) whom are all things, but Rom 11:36 says God is the one ‘out of’ (Greek ἐξ) and ‘through’ (Greek δι’) whom are all things, therefore, the Father and Son are both but one God.

I asked him 6 weeks in a row about this, and he had no answer 6 weeks in a row. I take it that is a sign he has no answers…

 

[Elizium23]

Jehovah’s Witnesses rely heavily on a single faulty Bible translation for many of their beliefs. It is very easy to trip them up if you know Greek and Hebrew well and can avoid the whole question of translations. Very good job.

 

[momor]

What about the Holy Spirit?

 

[confusedius]

And what about the dozen or so times Christ specifically said he was not the Father? When He talked second person, or prayed to God? Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, into your hands, etc.?

 

[z0wb13]

i told some JWs how much i liked revelation. they went into all this bible prophecy such and such, about how the ten horns on the dragon are really just the metaphor for the seven nations on earth, or something. and then i told them that the reason i liked it was because it reminded me of the godzilla movies, when all the monsters come out of the ocean.

anyway, i wouldn’t really hold it against the JWs, they already have it pretty rough without having birthdays and everything. i’m pretty sure that the door to door proselytizing is part of their religious obligation; i think they know they aren’t going to convert anyone. you might as we be polite to them, and send them on their way.

or you could torture them in greek, like the OP;p

 

[campeador]

And what about the dozen or so times Christ specifically said he was not the Father? When He talked second person, or prayed to God? Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, into your hands, etc.?

An example of Jesus’ hypostatic union.

 

[Nicea325]

I’ve been discussing religion with a Jehovah’s Witness missionary once-a-week for several months now, and I’ve stumped him so bad he could only pause, smile, and say ‘I don’t know, how could the Bible say that?’

Here’s my stumper on the Trinity. 1 Corinthians 8:6:
Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

At first this would seem to say the Father alone is God, and the Son alone is Lord. But I asked the Jehovah’s Witness “Is the Father Lord?” I then quoted Deuteronomy 10:17:
Because the Lord your God he is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords

He then agreed that the Father is Lord.

So I then asked, “If in 1 Cor 8:6 the Father is both God and Lord, could the Son be both God and Lord?” He said yes, it is possible.

But then I brought up Romans 11:36:
For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.

I then asked him who Rom 11:36 is talking about. He looked up a few verses, and we both agreed this is talking about God.

Here’s the stumper part!

I then compared the Greek of 1 Cor 8:6 to the Greek of Rom 11:6:
1 Cor 8:6 - ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ
Rom 11:6 - ὅτι ἐξ αὐτοῦ καὶ δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν τὰ πάντα αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν

I then showed him, 1 Cor 8:6 says the Father is the one ‘out of’ (Greek ἐξ) whom are all things, and the Son is the one ‘through’ (Greek δι’) whom are all things, but Rom 11:36 says God is the one ‘out of’ (Greek ἐξ) and ‘through’ (Greek δι’) whom are all things, therefore, the Father and Son are both but one God.

I asked him 6 weeks in a row about this, and he had no answer 6 weeks in a row. I take it that is a sign he has no answers…

If Trinity is false and pagan in orign as JW’s teach and believe, ask them this: Who is God was referring to here in these Gensis verses:

1. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all** the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

I can bet all of my marbles they will say the angels. Nope!**

 

[momor]

If Trinity is false and pagan in orign as JW’s teach and believe, ask them this: Who is God was referring to here in these Gensis verses:

1. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all** the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us**, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

I can bet all of my marbles they will say the angels. Nope!

I used the same verses with a Rabbi and that’s what he said, angels.
I asked how we could be made in the image and likeness of the angels, they being pure spirits, and he said the image was spiritual not physical.
I said why would you jump to a spiritual meaning when the whole context has been about physical creation? He just reiterated that the human spirit was like God and the angels.
When I asked why God would consult the angels about creation he said it was to show a loving inclusiveness. That’s where he lost me…

 

[Glorthac]

And what about the dozen or so times Christ specifically said he was not the Father? When He talked second person, or prayed to God? Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani, into your hands, etc.?

You clearly don’t understand the Trinity. The Trinity says the Son is NOT the Father. That is the heresy of Patripassionism.

Go do some research on the Trinity, if you don’t understand it. Three absolutely distinct persons who share the same one divine nature.

 

[TimothyH]

I used the same verses with a Rabbi and that’s what he said, angels.
I asked how we could be made in the image and likeness of the angels, they being pure spirits, and he said the image was spiritual not physical.
I said why would you jump to a spiritual meaning when the whole context has been about physical creation? He just reiterated that the human spirit was like God and the angels.
When I asked why God would consult the angels about creation he said it was to show a loving inclusiveness. That’s where he lost me…

I believe the Rabbi was more correct than you give him credit for. I mean this as no insult to you but am basing this comment on the little I know about trinitarian theology (not much) and the nature of God.

God is pure spirit. God has no physical created parts. Man’s spirit is created in the image of God’s spirit. Man’s physical nature - and all of creation - is not created in the image of God but sacramental. Remember that the sacraments use visible physical created things to reveal to us divine invisible truths. The sacramentality of all of creation, including man, reveals to us realities abbout God but our physical nature is an incomplete picture of God’s divine nature.

For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)

It is our spirit which is created in God’s image but our physical nature, due to original sin, is imperfect, partial, a way in which can know things about God and experience things of God but not perfectly until we are (if not sent to hell) ressurected in the perfection of our glorified bodies at the end of time.

The Rabbi denies the Trinity and so his understanding of “like one of us” in Genesis must necissarily include the angels. The Jehovah Witnesses, who deny the Trinity make the same mistake. The Rabbi and the JW’s really have no other choice. But the Rabbis understanding of the nature of God as pure spirit and the sacramental yet imperfect nature (due to original sin) of creation is deeper than give him credit for.

-Tim-

 

[momor]

I believe the Rabbi was more correct than you give him credit for. I mean this as no insult to you but am basing this comment on the little I know about trinitarian theology (not much) and the nature of God.

God is pure spirit. God has no physical created parts. Man’s spirit is created in the image of God’s spirit. Man’s physical nature - and all of creation - is not created in the image of God but sacramental. Remember that the sacraments use visible physical created things to reveal to us divine invisible truths. The sacramentality of all of creation, including man, reveals to us realities abbout God but our physical nature is an incomplete picture of God’s divine nature.

For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)

It is our spirit which is created in God’s image but our physical nature, due to original sin, is imperfect, partial, a way in which can know things about God and experience things of God but not perfectly until we are (if not sent to hell) ressurected in the perfection of our glorified bodies at the end of time.

The Rabbi denies the Trinity and so his understanding of “like one of us” in Genesis must necissarily include the angels. The Jehovah Witnesses, who deny the Trinity make the same mistake. The Rabbi and the JW’s really have no other choice. But the Rabbis understanding of the nature of God as pure spirit and the sacramental yet imperfect nature (due to original sin) of creation is deeper than give him credit for.

-Tim-

I am certainly not an expert in the Trinity either and I’m just replying with what I have understood.

God is pure spirit. God has no physical created parts.

Jesus is God and Jesus has an eternal human body although it is glorified as we are meant to be too. Since God exists outside of time, it can be said that Jesus has always been both human and divine.

It is our spirit which is created in God’s image but our physical nature, due to original sin, is imperfect

Remember that this statement in Genesis is taking place before the fall. Adam and Eve were created perfect in both body and spirit.

 

[fbl9]

I used the same verses with a Rabbi and that’s what he said, angels.
I asked how we could be made in the image and likeness of the angels, they being pure spirits, and he said the image was spiritual not physical.
I said why would you jump to a spiritual meaning when the whole context has been about physical creation? He just reiterated that the human spirit was like God and the angels.
When I asked why God would consult the angels about creation he said it was to show a loving inclusiveness. That’s where he lost me…

It is our spirit which is created in God’s image but our physical nature, due to original sin, is imperfect, partial, a way in which can know things about God and experience things of God but not perfectly until we are (if not sent to hell) ressurected in the perfection of our glorified bodies at the end of time.

The Rabbi denies the Trinity and so his understanding of “like one of us” in Genesis must necissarily include the angels. The Jehovah Witnesses, who deny the Trinity make the same mistake. The Rabbi and the JW’s really have no other choice. But the Rabbis understanding of the nature of God as pure spirit and the sacramental yet imperfect nature (due to original sin) of creation is deeper than give him credit for.

-Tim-

This would be a challenge with the Rabbi. However the JW would be contradicting their own doctrine with the use of angels. For they believe man does not have an immortal soul, which is the spirit part of our likeness to God.

 

[ClamDigger]

I’ve been discussing religion with a Jehovah’s Witness missionary once-a-week for several months now, and I’ve stumped him so bad he could only pause, smile, and say ‘I don’t know, how could the Bible say that?’

Here’s my stumper on the Trinity. 1 Corinthians 8:6:
Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

At first this would seem to say the Father alone is God, and the Son alone is Lord. But I asked the Jehovah’s Witness “Is the Father Lord?” I then quoted Deuteronomy 10:17:
Because the Lord your God he is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords

He then agreed that the Father is Lord.

So I then asked, “If in 1 Cor 8:6 the Father is both God and Lord, could the Son be both God and Lord?” He said yes, it is possible.

But then I brought up Romans 11:36:
For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.

I then asked him who Rom 11:36 is talking about. He looked up a few verses, and we both agreed this is talking about God.

Here’s the stumper part!

I then compared the Greek of 1 Cor 8:6 to the Greek of Rom 11:6:
1 Cor 8:6 - ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ
Rom 11:6 - ὅτι ἐξ αὐτοῦ καὶ δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν τὰ πάντα αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν

I then showed him, 1 Cor 8:6 says the Father is the one ‘out of’ (Greek ἐξ) whom are all things, and the Son is the one ‘through’ (Greek δι’) whom are all things, but Rom 11:36 says God is the one ‘out of’ (Greek ἐξ) and ‘through’ (Greek δι’) whom are all things, therefore, the Father and Son are both but one God.

I asked him 6 weeks in a row about this, and he had no answer 6 weeks in a row. I take it that is a sign he has no answers…

Wow! I feel like I have gained a deeper insight into the nature of God because of this! Thank you!

 

[Nicea325]

I used the same verses with a Rabbi and that’s what he said, angels.
I asked how we could be made in the image and likeness of the angels, they being pure spirits, and he said the image was spiritual not physical.
I said why would you jump to a spiritual meaning when the whole context has been about physical creation? He just reiterated that the human spirit was like God and the angels.
When I asked why God would consult the angels about creation he said it was to show a loving inclusiveness. That’s where he lost me…

So in other words,God made angels in His image too?