How important are early church fathers, and teachings to non-Catholics?

[grace_singh]

Have you ever made a copy of a copy of a copy? eventualy your copy starts getting corrupted. its always better if you can copy the original.

ah, but many of these writings were penned within the same time frame as the Gospels and Epistles.

they are not Scripture, nor should they be read as such, or put on par with. but they are worth reading, for their own sake. ever read the Epistle of Polycarp? beautiful.

plus many of the early Church leaders and apologists wrote extensively on topics such as the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, etc. i find these writings very, very valuble when debating topics such as “Christ’s divinity and the triunity of God were concpets invented by the pagan Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea”.

 

[Rightlydivide]

My question stands on how important they are to others. I don’t have access to scrolls. I don’t have assess to anything in the capacity you are speaking of anyway. I have books of the earliest writings, but that is it.

I asked simply out of intrigue as to how they were thought of among others.

The books I have by the way are The Faith of the Early Fathers collection. I have seen a few writings in there from before 90 AD btw, but few.

Start a new thread to debate exactly what they taught. My question is whether they are important to you or not. They are obviously not to you. That is fine, it’s your position, and I can respect it. They weren’t that important to me either, till I cared about how they practiced and taught.

I have read the Ante-Nicene fathers. What I find interesting is the patristic period right after Revelation. Or perhaps even before it like the Didache. Thank you for saying you respect my position. In a sense, because this thread is directed at US, I respond not to convince you, but to assert the validity of my position; whether you agree with it or not.

 

[Teneas]

I have read the Ante-Nicene fathers. What I find interesting is the patristic period right after Revelation. Or perhaps even before it like the Didache. Thank you for saying you respect my position. In a sense, because this thread is directed at US, I respond not to convince you, but to assert the validity of my position; whether you agree with it or not.

Fair enough.

 

[KathleenGee]

The problem is that the Protestants and Catholics are needing to return to their early Christian roots to be restored as one.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Just as the title says. How important is it to those that are not Catholic, as to what the earliest Christians taught and practiced?

Should how they taught, practiced, and believed effect how you practice now?

Very important!

**It’s the early Church Fathers’ Writings, Divine Liturgies and Lives that brought me out of the Catholic Church and into the Orthodox Church. **

 

[dvdjs]

Very important!

**…the early Church Fathers’ Writings, Divine Liturgies and Lives… **
These early church fathers, their liturgies, and their lives - apart from episodes of heresy in the East - were all in communion with the Rome. Makes me happy to live that way too, as a Byzantine Catholic.

 

[KathleenGee]

Fundamentalist Christians need to get an objective history of Scripture…

The Bible in itself is open to arbitration. That is why we have the Teaching Magesterium of the Church – the power of the Holy Spirit to transmit the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ through His apostles down through the ages.

We Catholics faithful to our Sabbath, hear the Oral Tradition, the Apostolic Tradition or understanding of Scripture. We are free to attend Biblical Studies of various themes, that are viewed more as personal reflections, but not considered apostolic…such as feminist Biblical studies.

 

[NDfan]

Just as the title says. How important is it to those that are not Catholic, as to what the earliest Christians taught and practiced?

Should how they taught, practiced, and believed effect how you practice now?

I think it’s somewhat important to know what they taught but it certainly doesn’t mean that we have to benchmark against those teachings. I think the example they set is more important than anything. Many ECFs died for their faith in Christ. Christianity is just not a complicated matter yet somehow we have allowed traditions of man and meaningless rituals to invade our faith. The most important thing the ECFs taught and died for is that Jesus was the Son of GOD and died for our sins on the cross. Having true faith in Christ is the only way we can have eternal life with GOD.

PEACE

 

[izoid]

I think it’s somewhat important to know what they taught but it certainly doesn’t mean that we have to benchmark against those teachings. I think the example they set is more important than anything. Many ECFs died for their faith in Christ. Christianity is just not a complicated matter yet somehow we have allowed traditions of man and meaningless rituals to invade our faith. The most important thing the ECFs taught and died for is that Jesus was the Son of GOD and died for our sins on the cross. Having true faith in Christ is the only way we can have eternal life with GOD.

PEACE

This is a very superficial understanding of the ECF’s. The ECF’s were very rich in their doctrine and their good works. To separate those from who they were is doing them a great injustice. Your understanding of what they taught and died for is simply your interpretation of a very narrow focus. Their teachings were much more thorough and deep than you give them credit for.

As far as the traditions and rituals; I would challenge you to study the worship that God created and structured. It is filled with rituals and taditions.

 

[KathleenGee]

Agree…when people bring up rituals and traditions…it is also revealing you have been taught to have the Church in some kind of image.

So it takes alot of solid study to disengage from such perceptions that Roman Catholics are part of a man made church.

There is Sacred Tradition and then there are ecclesial traditions that include their respective thought…you can see these reflections in reading of ECF’s…they only contribute a part to the greater tradition of common, universal faith.

 

[NDfan]

This is a very superficial understanding of the ECF’s. The ECF’s were very rich in their doctrine and their good works. To separate those from who they were is doing them a great injustice. Your understanding of what they taught and died for is simply your interpretation of a very narrow focus. Their teachings were much more thorough and deep than you give them credit for.

It’s only superficial in your opinion. And I’m certainly not denying the richness of their teachings and good works. Certainly their good works are a model for us but I would say that dying for your faith is never a narrow focus. That’s the ultimate sacrifice one can make for their faith. Regardless of how deep their teachings were it does not mean that every teaching they gave was “correct”. Many of their teachings were their own interpretations of scripture.

As far as the traditions and rituals; I would challenge you to study the worship that God created and structured. It is filled with rituals and taditions.

The only rituals and traditions GOD created was for the Jews which was abolished once Christ came to us. Please show me any rituals and traditions that GOD prescribes for Christians today. Aside from baptism and Christ asking us to participate in His supper as a remembrance of His death you will find none!!!

 

[KathleenGee]

The Mass…

is the fulfillment of ancient liturgies…you see the altar as one necessary component for worship going back to Abraham…then to the beginning of Saul…the precursors to the Eucharist…the order of worship given the Jewish people by God…not services…but rituals, memorials, atonement…

God did not allow the Jewish people to create their own idea of worship…how could they know what was pleasing to Him?

The Mass is indeed the fulfillment of ancient liturgies…The Word Made Flesh…the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Note as well that the Holiest of Holies had the sacred place of God’s presence, and graven images of cherubs were placed on both sides.

Jesus is Atonement for sin…we are offered with Him every Sabbath and daily Mass to the Father.

 

[NDfan]

The Mass…

is the fulfillment of ancient liturgies…you see the altar as one necessary component for worship going back to Abraham…then to the beginning of Saul…the precursors to the Eucharist…the order of worship given the Jewish people by God…not services…but rituals, memorials, atonement…

Yes given to the Jewish people only. The customs and rituals performed by the Jews do not apply to non-Jews. If that’s the case then every Christian in the world would be celebrating and observing all rituals prescribed by GOD to the jews that we read about in the books of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Anything else you reference like the divine liturgy and the Mass is all man made.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, we still read and ponder and receive from the Old Testament Bible.

You should study ancient Christian worship…fascinating!

Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass…? You should go some day. The only thing is that somebody will offer to shake hands with you…but for the most part, they are focused on the liturgy.

 

[Teneas]

i find them interesting, valueble, and definately worth reading… too many Protestants seem to go about it as though Christian history began with the apostles, blanked out into darkness for centuries, then picked up again with Luther. they know little to nothing about the early theologians, teachers, and apologists who helped shape Christian doctrine, and little about the diversity of Christianity beyond the Protestant / Cathlolic divide.

i see them as valuble and worth reading, and certainly worth citing in discussions and debates.

I like this one.

I like all answers by the way, if they are truly how you feel about the ECF and not just bashing others for paying attention to them

 

[KathleenGee]

Another thing, modern young people have learned little of Western Civilization. Not too long ago, secular universities ,made this study a requirement during Freshman year, and you could indirectly see all the accomplishments the Church did for humanity.

I shared them with some non-Catholics then they accused me of bragging…can’t win.

 

[NDfan]

Well, we still read and ponder and receive from the Old Testament Bible.

You should study ancient Christian worship…fascinating!

Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass…? You should go some day. The only thing is that somebody will offer to shake hands with you…but for the most part, they are focused on the liturgy.

Kathleen I have and agree it is very fascinating. And yes I have been to Catholic Mass. I grew up in the Catholic Church Don’t get me wrong I love the liturgical worship in a Catholic Mass. Matter of fact I think most churches follow some sort of liturgical worship whether they realize it or not. But I think the question is how important are the ECFs teachings.

Given that within 30-40 years of the Christian church spreading we read of errors they committed I’m guarded as to how closely we should be following them. The church at Corinth and Galatia alone required Paul’s “scolding” if you will. So then if we look at something Ignatius or Irenaeus or even Clement taught which was post-apostolic, it would be difficult for us to discern as to whether or not those teachings were “passed” down by the Apostles. We simply don’t know and can only rely on a small sampling of their writings. Even then it’s not clear that what they wrote was passed down from the Apostles. Everything else is simply word of mouth. You’ll never convince me that word of mouth teachings were passed down to us by the Apostles without ever changing or falling into some sort of error over the course of 2000 years. Too much political influence existed especially within Rome. So while the ECFs are important I don’t consider their teachings to be on the level as those we find in scripture.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Just as the title says. How important is it to those that are not Catholic, as to what the earliest Christians taught and practiced?

Should how they taught, practiced, and believed effect how you practice now?

Hugely important for me. We see the Church Fathers as part of our heritage as much as that of the Roman church. They do not belong to the Roman church, they belong to the whole church.

 

[KathleenGee]

It would be easy to think that…many times with ECF, you draw on only part of what they say…another ECF from a different region would then have another take…but it would compensate the other…all working towards building the universal church.

Remember, the Church began at Pentecost…it was primitive and persecuted for 300 years, then after that we had the Dark Ages and all kinds of wars with plundering and invasion throughout the ancient Roman empire, so things evolved…

Remember, grace works through nature…I do like studying early church liturgy, am in process of studying, ‘From Age to Age’, by Fr Edward Foley…and he definitely draws on diversity of peoples…but he had to set parameters to what ordinary people saw and practiced…otherwise one is all over the place with liturgy…same with history, inculturation and studying Scripture…very vast areas and it takes so many people to get through these sources.

I think for me what is the guiding light is the transmission of the apostolic faith through the Holy Spirit…the same Spirit in Old Testament as today. We have had all sorts of movements, changes to liturgy, etc., and there have been like wise abuse and excesses accompanying them.

So in my aging process, I must say I am pretty much burned out with contemporary movements…I go to Novus Ordo Mass but the pastor really focuses on our apostolic side of faith…on that line…so he is drawing from an understanding of faith, a context of which I tend to stay with…my life is so full each day…enough problems with it…so I try to keep simple in my approach.

Thanks for sharing, and appreciate your comments!

 

[izoid]

It’s only superficial in your opinion. And I’m certainly not denying the richness of their teachings and good works. Certainly their good works are a model for us but I would say that dying for your faith is never a narrow focus. That’s the ultimate sacrifice one can make for their faith. Regardless of how deep their teachings were it does not mean that every teaching they gave was “correct”. Many of their teachings were their own interpretations of scripture.

The only rituals and traditions GOD created was for the Jews which was abolished once Christ came to us. Please show me any rituals and traditions that GOD prescribes for Christians today. Aside from baptism and Christ asking us to participate in His supper as a remembrance of His death you will find none!!!

Yes, they were their understanding of scripture and tradition but who better to tell me what the apostles believed than someone who was taught directly by some of them? Do you feel that you can interpret scripture more accurately some 2,000 years later?

I think the burden of proof is on you to show us where He abolished the rituals and traditions. Read the book of Revelation and pay particular attention to the worship in heaven. I think you will find plenty of ritual and tradition.