O
OraLabora
Guest
I misread you. Sorry.
- Status
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
No problem, brother. It was perhaps my own misleading communication.
I just edited to correct that.
Y
YoungTradCath
Guest
And on one hand, the strong correlation of modern architecture to tradition-hating spaceship churches tends to yell out to me, “Just dump it, modern architecture is dead on arrival, it’s not worth fooling with, it’s too much hassle.” On the other hand, I do see a value in purifying it to be a sort of sign of contradiction, a sort of Christianized modern that will gain the eye of secularists while at the same time remaining true to Catholic tradition.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Good point.
I will also share that the one ultra-modern church I mention is not dumbed-down functional/bland/recreational-hall motif, which is what most of the tasteless variety of modern church architecture is: an aesthetic turn-off. It is, rather, extremely spare/sparse, with a “cavernous” sense. I would describe it as more “monastic” in feel. When you’re in there, you have a physical sense of Christ’s presence in the Blessed Sacrament. There’s “nothing” between you and God. You feel exposed, “bare.” Terrific for prayer, terrific for “baring all” and intimacy. Pretty hard core, I’d say. And definitely a place to convert. (Because of all that.)
B
Brendan_64
Guest
That is a good point. I for one do not like the Extraordinary Form, I quite like to understand what is going on so that it is meaningful to me, and I don’t want the priest facing away from me while we celebrate the Mass.
However, it does upset me when priests and bishops seem to want to push the envelope as far as they can with regards to instruction from Rome in an attempt to ‘modernise’ and implement change.
I like the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I like the inclusivity and acessibility of it. I also like recieving Communion in the hand (but I would quite like kneeling for Communion to be the norm). But I don’t like adaptaions that seem to spring up - church designs that don’t have kneelers, ‘modern’ music at Mass, singing the Our Father, holding hands, laity holding hands in the Orans position, more singing at Mass for the sake of singing.
The Vatican should lay down exactly what form the Liturgy should take and** insist **that all parishes, dioceses, and nations stick rigidly to it.
C
Chicocath
Guest
this answer!3
to all of it
J
jwinch2
Guest
Agreed.
If monks of the Solesmes Congregation were put in charge of the liturgy everywhere, you’d here few complaints about the OF
You’d get zero argument out of me. Though to be fair, as you pointed out correctly, other congregations do a great job with liturgy as well, as do other religious communities. The Dominicans, for example, are rightly praised for their attention to the liturgy. In fact, I am delighted to see a renewed interest in the Dominican rite that has occurred in recent years. However, as you note, the Benedictines are particularly known for this. The most beautiful Mass I have seen to date is at St. Gregory’s Abbey in Oklahoma. What is interesting is that, as is obviously the case with Solesmes, their roots are also very French. monksok.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=165Of course other Benedictine congregations would do it nicely as well, but Solesmes is famous for liturgy and is charged with preserving Gregorian chant by the Vatican. Not only would the OF Mass be as SC intended, I bet there’d even be Sunday vespers as well
One of the reasons my wife and I are doing a retreat there for the entire Easter Triduum is so that we can immerse ourselves in the latter half of Holy Week through participation in the Mass and the Divine Office with the monks. We plan to turn the phones off, unplug, and try to focus on the Easter mysteries. An environment where the liturgy is guaranteed to be beautiful and reverent, should be a great facilitator towards the process of focusing on God.
Now, if we can just get another Benedictine Pope!
Peace,
J
jwinch2
Guest
You are making my points in many ways better than I am today. Well put.Jason,
I think one of the ironies is that those who resist Traditionalism in liturgy are actually opposing Vatican 2. Vatican 2 did not demolish traditional liturgy, at least not intentionally! Vatican 2 welcomed a spectrum of variation, a spectrum which included some of the configurations of celebration we see today, some of which are distortions & misinterpretations of anything ever published by the Council. There was no intent to mandate a radically new & previously unrecognizable way of celebrating Mass, to be enforced worldwide as soon as possible.
The effect, whatever the intent, was that there was an erroneous assumption in the Church of “out with the old.”
Now we have an informal movement in the Church to resist any attempt at preserving what Vatican 2 never suggested we destroy, and this attempt is being made under the cover of “openness.” (Yeah.
(For the record, I attend, for reasons of commitments, mostly English Masses, most of which include a variety of non-approved elements according to the GIRM and according to various aspects of Church law. I’m hardly a radical. I tolerate and wince and pray real hard
Many people do fine with modern architecture and barely licit Masses. Others depend on a reverential space and a more formal rite for their spiritual health. The Church has never declared the latter to be inferior, unnecessary, or outdated.
F
Filii_Dei
Guest
Extremely important to me (3/3)
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem - It should be made the default, but not the only option. There are many traditions that celebrate Mass versus populum.
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. - I think these are wonderful elements of the liturgy that I would like to see brought back.
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music - By all means! Of course, with the option of hymns for those traditions that do not use chant.
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass - Veils are less important to me, but too many people dress too casually to Mass. A culturally sensitive and seasonally appropriate dress code should be considered.
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) - Modern designs are hideous and we should bring back more traditional art and designs. However, I would also like traditional architecture to also evolve the same way Gothic evolved from Romanesque, and Baroque from Gothic, but in continuity with tradition. Furthermore, we must not discard the many examples of noble simplicity.
t) that nobody queues up in the communion line for blessings - You cannot believe how much this bothers me.
u) that there are more priests and deacons, including permanent deacons - I believe in quality over quantity, but it doesn’t hurt to have a few more of those well-formed vocations.
v) that Catholic schools stress and inculcate Catholic values in their students - I am sad to see Catholic schools become only nominally Catholic in name with token concessions towards Catholic education, offering little in the way of comprehensive religious instruction for their students. Their parents sent them to these schools to be raised in the faith, so they should at least try to fulfill this objective.
w) that there is better catechesis of the faithful to understand the teachings of the Church, and the traditions that have been handed to us - Poorly-catechised Catholics are a problem that affects all of us and is one of the reasons for the attrition rates that we experience. We need to stem the flow and reignite the enthusiasm for Christ and his Church.
Important to me (2/3)
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue - It should definitely be encouraged and at the very least taught to the faithful.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar - It depends on the feast or vigil. Particularly, I would like Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quinquagesima to be restored, as is the Octave of Pentecost.
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. - Yes, but quality over quantity.
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II - It has long been mandated where I am, but it’s always important to emphasise it.
Somewhat important to me (1/3)
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. - It’s not the place of the laity to dictate to the priests and bishops how to conduct their homilies. They are the ones invested with the responsibility of addressing the changing pastoral needs of their society. In any case, my priests frequently cover the theology of sin and salvation at their homilies and drill it into the faithful. That being said, I’m aware of some priests in other countries who probably need to be sent for studies in Rome.
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations - I agree in principle, but what defines liberal? The bishops are best qualified to decide on this. We should not try to replace the Magisterium as the scriptural authority.
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II - Very important, but I feel that the Holy See, especially under the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI, have already made very clear statements, so it’s not a concern to me now.
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism - Very important, but I think my bishop and future bishop have been doing a good job of it, so it’s not a huge issue to me right now.
Don’t care at all (0/0)
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails - My priority is on COTT.
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. - I detest Catholic politicians who openly support abortion and homosexual marriage contrary to the clear teachings of the Church, but I have no wish to place undue expectations upon our bishops. There is reason why they make the decision and not us. Our bishops are the ones who are responsible for the pastoral well-being of their church. Furthermore, our bishops do not need to declare that a layperson has been excommunicated. It is only required in the excommunication of clergy. The sheep should not be forcing this upon the shepherd.
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error - This does not affect me in the least. I don’t really care for other denominations, and I already know that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Regardless, whether we stress it more does not make a difference to Catholics. We already express quite clearly the fact that we are the true Church.
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem - It should be made the default, but not the only option. There are many traditions that celebrate Mass versus populum.
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. - I think these are wonderful elements of the liturgy that I would like to see brought back.
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music - By all means! Of course, with the option of hymns for those traditions that do not use chant.
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass - Veils are less important to me, but too many people dress too casually to Mass. A culturally sensitive and seasonally appropriate dress code should be considered.
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) - Modern designs are hideous and we should bring back more traditional art and designs. However, I would also like traditional architecture to also evolve the same way Gothic evolved from Romanesque, and Baroque from Gothic, but in continuity with tradition. Furthermore, we must not discard the many examples of noble simplicity.
t) that nobody queues up in the communion line for blessings - You cannot believe how much this bothers me.
u) that there are more priests and deacons, including permanent deacons - I believe in quality over quantity, but it doesn’t hurt to have a few more of those well-formed vocations.
v) that Catholic schools stress and inculcate Catholic values in their students - I am sad to see Catholic schools become only nominally Catholic in name with token concessions towards Catholic education, offering little in the way of comprehensive religious instruction for their students. Their parents sent them to these schools to be raised in the faith, so they should at least try to fulfill this objective.
w) that there is better catechesis of the faithful to understand the teachings of the Church, and the traditions that have been handed to us - Poorly-catechised Catholics are a problem that affects all of us and is one of the reasons for the attrition rates that we experience. We need to stem the flow and reignite the enthusiasm for Christ and his Church.
Important to me (2/3)
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue - It should definitely be encouraged and at the very least taught to the faithful.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar - It depends on the feast or vigil. Particularly, I would like Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quinquagesima to be restored, as is the Octave of Pentecost.
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. - Yes, but quality over quantity.
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II - It has long been mandated where I am, but it’s always important to emphasise it.
Somewhat important to me (1/3)
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. - It’s not the place of the laity to dictate to the priests and bishops how to conduct their homilies. They are the ones invested with the responsibility of addressing the changing pastoral needs of their society. In any case, my priests frequently cover the theology of sin and salvation at their homilies and drill it into the faithful. That being said, I’m aware of some priests in other countries who probably need to be sent for studies in Rome.
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations - I agree in principle, but what defines liberal? The bishops are best qualified to decide on this. We should not try to replace the Magisterium as the scriptural authority.
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II - Very important, but I feel that the Holy See, especially under the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI, have already made very clear statements, so it’s not a concern to me now.
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism - Very important, but I think my bishop and future bishop have been doing a good job of it, so it’s not a huge issue to me right now.
Don’t care at all (0/0)
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails - My priority is on COTT.
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. - I detest Catholic politicians who openly support abortion and homosexual marriage contrary to the clear teachings of the Church, but I have no wish to place undue expectations upon our bishops. There is reason why they make the decision and not us. Our bishops are the ones who are responsible for the pastoral well-being of their church. Furthermore, our bishops do not need to declare that a layperson has been excommunicated. It is only required in the excommunication of clergy. The sheep should not be forcing this upon the shepherd.
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error - This does not affect me in the least. I don’t really care for other denominations, and I already know that the Catholic Church is the true Church. Regardless, whether we stress it more does not make a difference to Catholics. We already express quite clearly the fact that we are the true Church.
K
Kal2012
Guest
3/3
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass
**Everyone in my RCIA class is surprised at how informally people dress for mass! I’d also include the word “modestly” and “respectfully” dressed. If you know that you are going to be preparing the Eucharist table, then you shouldn’t be wearing a sweatshirt and jeans. I don’t care how nice they are. It’s disrespectful to everyone. Also, the ‘short-short’ skirts…I can’t help but think ‘hooker’… distracting for everyone. **
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. Amen!
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. Amen!
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error
2/3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations
0/3
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.)
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II
My 2 cents.
Jo
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass
**Everyone in my RCIA class is surprised at how informally people dress for mass! I’d also include the word “modestly” and “respectfully” dressed. If you know that you are going to be preparing the Eucharist table, then you shouldn’t be wearing a sweatshirt and jeans. I don’t care how nice they are. It’s disrespectful to everyone. Also, the ‘short-short’ skirts…I can’t help but think ‘hooker’… distracting for everyone. **
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. Amen!
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. Amen!
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error
2/3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations
0/3
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.)
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II
My 2 cents.
Jo
E
einna
Guest
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 0
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 2
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 0
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 3
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.1
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 0
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 2
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 0
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 0
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc.0
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 1
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 0
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 0
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 0
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 0
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.0
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 0
t) anything else you wish to add
I am very concerned about the talk of excommunicating those who knowingly do not follow the Catholic Church’s teaching. I think they are the ones that truly need to be at Mass hearing God’s word. Throwing them out of the church is not going to change their heart or mind, giving them a chance to repent. It is playing God. Let God be the judge of them when the time comes.
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 2
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 0
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 3
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.1
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 0
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 2
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 0
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 0
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc.0
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 1
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 0
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 0
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 0
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 0
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.0
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 0
t) anything else you wish to add
I am very concerned about the talk of excommunicating those who knowingly do not follow the Catholic Church’s teaching. I think they are the ones that truly need to be at Mass hearing God’s word. Throwing them out of the church is not going to change their heart or mind, giving them a chance to repent. It is playing God. Let God be the judge of them when the time comes.
A
anp1215
Guest
The excommunicated are free to attend Mass and hear God’s word. In fact, they are required to.
K
Kal2012
Guest
Also, I liked what someone else said about needing to be secure in the knowledge that Catholic schools are actually teaching Catholicism.
Not being Catholic in name or heritage only.
Not being Catholic in name or heritage only.
J
jwinch2
Guest
Excommunication is not throwing someone out of the Church. It is stipulating that, until such time as there is sincere contrition and a valid confession, a person who is manifesting grave sin in such a way that it is obstinate in nature, is not to receive Holy Communion. It is a pastoral process designed to bring those who have gone astray back into the fold of the Church.
During this time, they are free and in fact still under obligation, to come to Mass as well as being free to participate in all other parish activities. It is also something which is used as a last resort after many other attempts to teach the person in question what they are doing that is wrong and how to go about correcting the issue.
In addition, while you are correct in that we cannot judge motivations or the state of one’s heart, we absolutely can judge one’s actions. Pope Benedict spoke beautifully about this last year in his Lenten message on Fraternal Correction and the need for it in today’s society. The idea that the Church cannot judge the actions of a politician who makes it easier to murder innocent children as objectively sinful and in need of correction is entirely false.
Finally, no one is capriciously excommunicated without significant pastoral attempts to prevent things from escalating to that level. This is process that would likely be one of months if not years before things reached that level. Again, the whole time the process would be one of education, prayer, formation of conscience, discernment, and conversion.
T
triumphguy
Guest
Just an informal poll for curiosity’s sake. Copy/paste this list and rank them from 0/3 (“don’t care at all”) to 3/3 (“extremely important to me”). Any comments or qualifications are welcome. This list assumes you are a Latin-rite Catholic, so feel free to make any adjustments relevant to your rite if you are not but want to participate
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 0
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently minus-3
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 0
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity minus-3
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 0
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 1
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 0
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 0
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 2
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 2
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 2
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism** 0**
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 0
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 1
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 1
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II It already is in Canada
t) anything else you wish to add
God bless!
D
Deo_Gratias42
Guest
:banghead:
He’s not facing away from you. He’s facing East as is everyone else facing the Risen Christ offering sacrifice to God. The vast majority of Catholics who attend Mass don’t actually understand what’s going on on the altar, even when they can see everything the priest is doing.
T
TxBSonnier
Guest
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem: 3
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently: 0 - I have a toddler and have to be able to hear what’s being said in order to be able to follow along properly.
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin: 2 - Latin is wonderful at helping to remind me that we are offering the Mass to God. I do however like the readings to be in the vernacular.
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity: 0 - I like the amount of responses we have now in the OF, it helps keep me focused on what is happening instead of letting my mind wander.
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.: ? I’m not sure what all of those are or how they are/were used in the Mass, so I can’t offer an opinion at this point.
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music: 2 - I would clarify that there is a decent amount of modernly composed traditional style of music, so dividing by time would be a poor way to asses what music best contributes to the Mass. That said, I would love to hear more chant on a regular basis.
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue: 2 - While I think going to “only” on the tongue too quickly and without proper catechesis on the matter would be unwise, I would like to see it become the practiced norm.
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails: 2 - Again, not “only” overnight, but should be made available (install/ use alter rails) and encouraged.
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass: 3 - While keeping in mind that what is “nice” dress for Mass will vary with place and time. I started going to Mass at a college parish with a very well attended daily Mass- what most people wore to that was what they had worn to class that day. A college student on a Tuesday after class should have a different standard than a middle-age businessman on Sunday morning. That said, everyone at every Mass should take care that what they are wearing is modest and respectful.
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc.: 2 - This should be done carefully, but needs done. I’ve heard far to many stories lately of people allowing grave sin in their lives primarily because that had not been told that it was sin. Any time there is a lesson that helps to define and point out sin should be accompanied by the message of God’s forgiveness of that sin.
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations: 1 - There are many good ones and several bad ones, but once you get into the category of “good” it becomes a matter of what you will use- an approved but not “best” translation that gets read will do you more good then the “best” sitting on your self collecting dust because you don’t read it.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar: 1 - not knowing what all was changed it’s hard to comment, but while it might be nice it’s not a matter that I see as pressing.
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc.: 2 - While I do not know the pastoral needs of each politician, I doubt that many have reached the point of excommunication. I do think that some sort of public correction of a less severe nature is needed though, at the minimum no one who is aware of their policies should be led to believe that they are in good standing in the Church.
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II: 3 - a LOT of catechesis is needed on many subjects, and this would cover a good starting chunk of it.
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism: 2 - It needs done, but I don’t know how to do so more effectively right now.
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error: 1 - I don’t think it needs more stressed at this time, we’ve always been pretty clear about it, but it certainly needs to not be diminished. One must also keep a certain amount of tact in the conversation or else you end up with an argument that turns people off from truly listening and converts no one.
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.): 2 - Better design should go into all churches being built, but all but the worst have more pressing usage for their funds then an aesthetic exterior renovation.
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.: 2 - I’d say that any changes made to existing churches should focus on those aspects that effect (the most) use first such as altars and alter rails, and that other changes be made over time as prudent to the budget.
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II: 3- The Church always needs to grow in humility and penance and Friday abstinence would be a good way to encourage that.
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently: 0 - I have a toddler and have to be able to hear what’s being said in order to be able to follow along properly.
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin: 2 - Latin is wonderful at helping to remind me that we are offering the Mass to God. I do however like the readings to be in the vernacular.
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity: 0 - I like the amount of responses we have now in the OF, it helps keep me focused on what is happening instead of letting my mind wander.
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al.: ? I’m not sure what all of those are or how they are/were used in the Mass, so I can’t offer an opinion at this point.
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music: 2 - I would clarify that there is a decent amount of modernly composed traditional style of music, so dividing by time would be a poor way to asses what music best contributes to the Mass. That said, I would love to hear more chant on a regular basis.
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue: 2 - While I think going to “only” on the tongue too quickly and without proper catechesis on the matter would be unwise, I would like to see it become the practiced norm.
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails: 2 - Again, not “only” overnight, but should be made available (install/ use alter rails) and encouraged.
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass: 3 - While keeping in mind that what is “nice” dress for Mass will vary with place and time. I started going to Mass at a college parish with a very well attended daily Mass- what most people wore to that was what they had worn to class that day. A college student on a Tuesday after class should have a different standard than a middle-age businessman on Sunday morning. That said, everyone at every Mass should take care that what they are wearing is modest and respectful.
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc.: 2 - This should be done carefully, but needs done. I’ve heard far to many stories lately of people allowing grave sin in their lives primarily because that had not been told that it was sin. Any time there is a lesson that helps to define and point out sin should be accompanied by the message of God’s forgiveness of that sin.
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations: 1 - There are many good ones and several bad ones, but once you get into the category of “good” it becomes a matter of what you will use- an approved but not “best” translation that gets read will do you more good then the “best” sitting on your self collecting dust because you don’t read it.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar: 1 - not knowing what all was changed it’s hard to comment, but while it might be nice it’s not a matter that I see as pressing.
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc.: 2 - While I do not know the pastoral needs of each politician, I doubt that many have reached the point of excommunication. I do think that some sort of public correction of a less severe nature is needed though, at the minimum no one who is aware of their policies should be led to believe that they are in good standing in the Church.
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II: 3 - a LOT of catechesis is needed on many subjects, and this would cover a good starting chunk of it.
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism: 2 - It needs done, but I don’t know how to do so more effectively right now.
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error: 1 - I don’t think it needs more stressed at this time, we’ve always been pretty clear about it, but it certainly needs to not be diminished. One must also keep a certain amount of tact in the conversation or else you end up with an argument that turns people off from truly listening and converts no one.
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.): 2 - Better design should go into all churches being built, but all but the worst have more pressing usage for their funds then an aesthetic exterior renovation.
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.: 2 - I’d say that any changes made to existing churches should focus on those aspects that effect (the most) use first such as altars and alter rails, and that other changes be made over time as prudent to the budget.
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II: 3- The Church always needs to grow in humility and penance and Friday abstinence would be a good way to encourage that.
G
godisgood77
Guest
a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 0/3
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 0/3
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 0/3
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 0/3
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 1/3
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 2/3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 0/3
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 0/3
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 1/3 - “nicely” is a subjective term…do not know how anyone could regulate this…I would favor some modesty standards **
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 2/3
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2/3 - Can’t really vote on this, as one person’s liberal is another conservative, but I would be in favor of Joseph Ratzinger’s form of progressivism.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 0/3
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 2/3
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3/3 - full implementation of the Council should be the goal as stated by Benedict and John Paul**
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 0/3 - seems to be condemned at every turn, not sure how much more can be expected
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error - 0/3 - would like to see a continuation of the trajectory established by Benedict to admit error on the part of the Church where it exists, see the truth that exists in other religions and engage the errors in other religions with charity, tact and informed intelligence… just like our Papa did
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 0/3 - **would be colossal waste of time and money to prioritize this in front of feeding/clothing the poor, counseling the poor in spirit, educating the naive and spreading the Gospel of Jesus **
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 0/3 - same answer as Q
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 2/3 - the virtues and redeeming qualities should be more prominently espoused…I think it should be more widely a practiced, but should in no way be required.
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 0/3
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 0/3
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 0/3
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 1/3
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 2/3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 0/3
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 0/3
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 1/3 - “nicely” is a subjective term…do not know how anyone could regulate this…I would favor some modesty standards **
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 2/3
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2/3 - Can’t really vote on this, as one person’s liberal is another conservative, but I would be in favor of Joseph Ratzinger’s form of progressivism.
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 0/3
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 2/3
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3/3 - full implementation of the Council should be the goal as stated by Benedict and John Paul**
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 0/3 - seems to be condemned at every turn, not sure how much more can be expected
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error - 0/3 - would like to see a continuation of the trajectory established by Benedict to admit error on the part of the Church where it exists, see the truth that exists in other religions and engage the errors in other religions with charity, tact and informed intelligence… just like our Papa did
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 0/3 - **would be colossal waste of time and money to prioritize this in front of feeding/clothing the poor, counseling the poor in spirit, educating the naive and spreading the Gospel of Jesus **
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 0/3 - same answer as Q
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 2/3 - the virtues and redeeming qualities should be more prominently espoused…I think it should be more widely a practiced, but should in no way be required.
G
godisgood77
Guest
AMEN… whoever you are…t) anything else you wish to add
Yes.
Stop all this nonsense about whether the tabernacle is in the right place or if the alter should be in the center or which side the pulpit is on. Does it matter which why the priest faces? Does it matter which language is spoken? Does it matter what songs are sung? Does it matter what the church looks like? Maybe I would feel different if I had grown up in the 50’s or something, but I didn’t. All that matters to me, the ONLY thing that matters to me, is that when I go up for Communion, I am receiving the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. Has that changed at all since Vatican 2? Again, I’m no expert, but as far as I know it hasn’t.
To me, that is what matters. Everything is is just decoration.
A
Armor_of_Light
Guest
I am going to suggest (respectfully of course) that you ‘decorate’ your mind and research the whys of all these beautiful customs before setting them aside. I won’t ruin it for you, but you’ll find that EVERYTHING listed was put in place for a reason.Yes.
Stop all this nonsense about whether the tabernacle is in the right place or if the alter should be in the center or which side the pulpit is on. Does it matter which why the priest faces? Does it matter which language is spoken? Does it matter what songs are sung? Does it matter what the church looks like? Maybe I would feel different if I had grown up in the 50’s or something, but I didn’t. All that matters to me, the ONLY thing that matters to me, is that when I go up for Communion, I am receiving the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. Has that changed at all since Vatican 2? Again, I’m no expert, but as far as I know it hasn’t.
To me, that is what matters. Everything is is just decoration.
- Status