How important are these traditionalist issues to you?

[jwinch2]

Stop all this nonsense about whether the tabernacle is in the right place or if the alter should be in the center or which side the pulpit is on. Does it matter which why the priest faces? Does it matter which language is spoken? Does it matter what songs are sung? Does it matter what the church looks like? Maybe I would feel different if I had grown up in the 50’s or something, but I didn’t. All that matters to me, the ONLY thing that matters to me, is that when I go up for Communion, I am receiving the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. Has that changed at all since Vatican 2? Again, I’m no expert, but as far as I know it hasn’t.

To me, that is what matters. Everything is is just decoration.

You are correct in that God’s presence in the Eucharist, being the source and summit of our Faith, is the most important aspect of the Mass.

As for the rest, the Church has teachings on this for a reason. We are called to give God right praise, not just any old praise, but right praise. We are called to offer our best to God. We are called to ensure that when we celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that it is something sacred, set apart, and transcendent as befitting God’s divine nature. When we are at the Mass we are present at Christ’s passion on Calvary. As such, perhaps a bit of effort on our part might not be the worst idea in the world.

I would respectfully ask you to please consider reading the documents that the Church has put out in regards to the liturgy, how it is to be celebrated, and why it matters. adoremus.org/ChurchDocs.html
adoremus.org/SacrosanctumConcilium.html
adoremus.org/MusicamSacram.html
adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html

 

[Brendan_64]

He’s not facing away from you. He’s facing East as is everyone else facing the Risen Christ offering sacrifice to God. .

So the risen Christ is in the East is He? And if the priest is standing behind the altar, facing the congregation he is not facing the risen Christ is he? Despite the fact that the confected host is between him and the congregation?

The vast majority of Catholics who attend Mass don’t actually understand what’s going on on the altar, even when they can see everything the priest is doing.

What a utterly arrogant statement. We are perfectly well aware of what is going on. We are also aware that a priest doesn’t have to be looking in a certain geographical direction for for the Sacrament to take place (as are you if truth be told).

:banghead: It’s like Old Testament Law with some of you lot.

 

[EphelDuath]

What a utterly arrogant statement. We are perfectly well aware of what is going on.

“You” are not the majority. Polls have shown that upwards of half or more Catholics don’t think the Eucharist is, and is meant as, a literal presentation of our crucified Lord.

 

[godisgood77]

“You” are not the majority. Polls have shown that upwards of half or more Catholics don’t think the Eucharist is, and is meant as, a literal presentation of our crucified Lord.

Wait, didn’t Jesus institute the Eucharist before he was crucified? If so, is the Eucharist a literal representation of the crucified Lord or a representation of the soon to be crucified Lord??? I’m actually just kidding, point being you could debate these things to the Nth degree and miss, sadly, miss the point completely.

 

[Brendan_64]

“You” are not the majority. Polls have shown that upwards of half or more Catholics don’t think the Eucharist is, and is meant as, a literal presentation of our crucified Lord.

And of course, 100% of ‘traditionalists’ understand it fully? They respond in Latin and the priest faces the ‘right’ way so they must generally have a greater understanding than those ‘cafeteria Catholics’ who respond in the vernacular?

The fact is that the direction in which the priest faces has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the Sacrament, nor does the langauge in which the Mass is said. Such things do not affect the enormity of what is happening for us on the Altar. I hardly think our risen Lord gives one jot what way the priest has been facing.

Oh and Deo Gratis said the **vast **majority which would suggest not only more than 50%, but in the region of 70% or more. That is complete nonsense. And where are these polls you quote show 50% from? The majority of the Church, worldwide? Or are you thinking of a particular nation (which would be a pretty insular mind-set considering our Church is the Universal Church).

 

[jwinch2]

A plenary lecture to the Church Music Association of America
by Msgr. Andrew Wadsworth
Executive Director of the International Commission on English in the Liturgy, at Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA, June 14, 2011.

The Agony and the Ecstasy: The Fundamental Importance of Liturgical Chant in the Roman Missal and Our Celebration of the Eucharistic Mystery

vimeo.com/25776981

 

[EphelDuath]

And of course, 100% of ‘traditionalists’ understand it fully? They respond in Latin and the priest faces the ‘right’ way so they must generally have a greater understanding than those ‘cafeteria Catholics’ who respond in the vernacular?

To a degree, my answer is yes. You don’t have to understand a single word in the EF to see the absolute reverence before the Blessed Sacrament. A lot of that reverence was lost in the period after Vatican II. It’s been rediscovered (or never lost) in a lot of churches but there’s still many who think the Eucharist is a symbol and the highlight of Holy Mass is to hear the homily.

The fact is that the direction in which the priest faces has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the Sacrament, nor does the langauge in which the Mass is said. Such things do not affect the enormity of what is happening for us on the Altar. I hardly think our risen Lord gives one jot what way the priest has been facing.

I think our Lord cares about the reverence for which one approaches His body. It’s socially acceptable these days to walk into church late, receive Holy Communion in one’s casual clothes, then immediately leave church. As much as I hear about those wicked judgmental traditionalists, the amount of sanctity in the Holy Mass at a traditional church is plainly clear.

 

[TimothyH]

Agreed.

You’d get zero argument out of me. Though to be fair, as you pointed out correctly, other congregations do a great job with liturgy as well, as do other religious communities. The Dominicans, for example, are rightly praised for their attention to the liturgy. In fact, I am delighted to see a renewed interest in the Dominican rite that has occurred in recent years. However, as you note, the Benedictines are particularly known for this. The most beautiful Mass I have seen to date is at St. Gregory’s Abbey in Oklahoma. What is interesting is that, as is obviously the case with Solesmes, their roots are also very French. monksok.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98&Itemid=165

One of the reasons my wife and I are doing a retreat there for the entire Easter Triduum is so that we can immerse ourselves in the latter half of Holy Week through participation in the Mass and the Divine Office with the monks. We plan to turn the phones off, unplug, and try to focus on the Easter mysteries. An environment where the liturgy is guaranteed to be beautiful and reverent, should be a great facilitator towards the process of focusing on God.

Now, if we can just get another Benedictine Pope!

Peace,

Be careful what you wish for. You might get an Ordinary Form liturgy with everyone gathered around an altar. Benedictine communites vary greatly in the type of liturgy they use. All Benedicine communites are not high-altar Tridentine Mass communites.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

To a degree, my answer is yes. You don’t have to understand a single word in the EF to see the absolute reverence before the Blessed Sacrament. A lot of that reverence was lost in the period after Vatican II. It’s been rediscovered (or never lost) in a lot of churches but there’s still many who think the Eucharist is a symbol and the highlight of Holy Mass is to hear the homily.

I think our Lord cares about the reverence for which one approaches His body. It’s socially acceptable these days to walk into church late, receive Holy Communion in one’s casual clothes, then immediately leave church. As much as I hear about those wicked judgmental traditionalists, the amount of sanctity in the Holy Mass at a traditional church is plainly clear.

You are talking about piety, not sanctity.

Sanctity is holiness. Holiness is growth in virtue, an habiitual tendancy to act virtuously instead of sinfully. Holiness is only obvious in how we live the Gospel throughout our lives and how we treat other human beings.

Piety is devoutness. Piety is a virtue but it is not holiness. Holiness is a growth in all virtues. Sanctity is living your life more like Christ. Piety is devoutly observing your religion.

Piety might be obvious at Mass but how virtuous someone is in their personal life, how much their soul resembles Christ is not.

You are talking not about sanctity but piety.

-Tim-

 

[Brendan_64]

Piety might be obvious at Mass but how virtuous someone is in their personal life, how much their soul resembles Christ is not.

 

[Aramis]

Just an informal poll for curiosity’s sake. Copy/paste this list and rank them from 0/3 (“don’t care at all”) to 3/3 (“extremely important to me”). Any comments or qualifications are welcome. This list assumes you are a Latin-rite Catholic, so feel free to make any adjustments relevant to your rite if you are not but want to participate

I’ll use negatives for “Important and opposed to”

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 0 I didn’t go east because of ad orientam. I went east because of the theology and teaching being built into the Byzantine liturgy. It wouldn’t bother me in the least to see a rubric change allowing vs populem…
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently -3* - I think it’s a bad idea. The canon has much to teach.*
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin -2 The liturgy being unintelligible to the people has been a major failure of the Roman Rite for centuries - since the protestant reformation in fact - and raised the bar for converts to a point where few would make the efforts, and many left to find liturgy they could understand - often to lutheranism and anglicanism. Unintelligibility in both not being heard and not being understood when heard.
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity -2 Active participation in the liturgy is good.
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 0 Technically, the Last Gospel isn’t part of the Roman mass anyway. It’s technically after the mass. But I don’t object to it in the EF/TLM use. *
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 0 So long as the hymns are reverent, I could care no less how old they are. *
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 0 I prefer to receive on the tongue, but reception in the hand is an ancient tradition in the Syro-Chaldean Rite… blanket “it must be X” is a violation of the churches value of diversity.
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails -1 - violates the 20th canon of the first ecumenical council, since communion is part of prayer. So does kneeling during the canon.
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass -1 clean and modest is all that matters. I’ve seen too many fancy-sexy outfit + Veil combinations in my time, outfits that are immodest despite full coverage… I’d honestly rather see a house-froc or loose bluejeans than a snug fancy dress on a woman.
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 0 It’s more important to make the homily practical advice for living a christian life
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 0 Do you really want St. Bran’s feast restored? (Bran was a britano-celtic pagan Deity who was morphed into St. Bran…) Or St. Thor? there have been a lot of local pagan deities added to the calendars and later suppressed.
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 2
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 1 There is room for improvement on the teaching of V II, but it’s more important to restore reverence to worship first.
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 0 I see plenty of condemnation of it already. But I understand a few bishops are lax about it.
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error -1 such stress reduces the credibility of the chuch, and is actually in violation of Vatican II with regards to the Orthodox Churches. Heck, it’s in violation of the 1917 code of canon law, too, with regard to the Orthodox churches.
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) -1 While there is nothing inherently wrong with them, they are technically, financially and legally impractical in many places. And utterly wrong for the eastern rites
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc.-2 Each parish should be decorated according to the traditions of the rite - but note that this means, for roman, moanstic parishes should be plain. It means for byzantines absolutely NO statuary, iconography only.
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II -1 Fasting and Abstinence as mundane dictum is problematic - emphasis on the call to penitential practice with abstinence being a suggested penitential practice of it is far better. Further, lots of Catholics historically ignored meatless fridays due to work and the potential for being ostracized. The call to penitential practice is more important than the rote observance implied in the question.
t) anything else you wish to add
Obedience to the Hierarchy: 2 we often forget that the call to obedience is vital.

 

[jwinch2]

Be careful what you wish for. You might get an Ordinary Form liturgy with everyone gathered around an altar. Benedictine communites vary greatly in the type of liturgy they use. All Benedicine communites are not high-altar Tridentine Mass communites.

-Tim-

I am well aware of that fact. In fact, most Benedictine communities are using the OF of the Mass, they simply do it reverently and according to the mind of the Church. My response towards Michel on a Benedictine pope was tongue in cheek.

 

[jwinch2]

A little Catholic satire to lighted the mood.

eyeofthetiber.com/2013/02/18/fr-zuhlsdorf-installs-electric-altar-rails-2-women-injured/

Madison, WI––It is being reported that the two unidentified Catholics who rushed the altar this morning to assist Fr. John Zuhlsdorf during the Mass were injured after they were shocked by electric altar rails installed by the priest. Zuhlsdorf, the well known Catholic priest and blogger, told Eye of the Tiber that he initially did not know what happened. “I was preparing to have the electrified rails turned off so I could distribute Holy Communion when I heard the sound of something grilling. I remember the lights began to flicker like someone was being electrocuted in the Green Mile.” Witnesses say that the two unidentified Catholics were not parishioners, but visitors. “Everyone here knows that Father’s got it under control up there,” one parishioner told reporters. “He electrified the altar rails for just this reason…visitors who don’t know better.” Ruth Hawkins, another witness, told Eye of the Tiber that the first woman electrified just moments after the Mass began was overheard saying, “the poor priest needs to stop mumbling and speak up into his microphone so we can all hear him,” before attempting to run up and quietly inform him of his gaffe. The other woman electrified was reportedly “disgusted” that no one was assisting Zuhlsdorf distribute, and was attempting to “give him a hand.” She reported from her hospital bed late this afternoon that, after some reflection, she believed no parishioner wanted to help him because he had offended the congregation by rudely turning his back to them all Mass long. Parishioners report that the church smelled of chicken for the rest of the Mass. The two women are expected to make full recoveries.

 

[OraLabora]

Be careful what you wish for. You might get an Ordinary Form liturgy with everyone gathered around an altar. Benedictine communites vary greatly in the type of liturgy they use. All Benedicine communites are not high-altar Tridentine Mass communites.

-Tim-

In fact very few use the Tridentine Mass.

At our abbey only the concelebrating priests are around the altar (facing west I might add, that is, versus populum). The non-ordained monks (except the acolytes) are in the choir stalls between the sanctuary and the nave. The only people allowed in the choir stalls are monks, novices, postulants and visiting monks, priests and bishops).

On the other hand I visited an abbey in the UK where visiting oblates and people on retreat (male or female) are allowed in the choir stalls for the Offices and the weekday Mass. At weekday Mass they gather around the altar, with the monks making the first semi-circle and the visitors in the second row. At Sunday Mass all visitors sit in the nave. In both cases the Mass was done reverently although they aren’t as proficient with chant, but they are also a smaller community.

Personally I liked the UK abbey very much even though the liturgy was not as expertly done. Solesmes abbeys can get a little stuffy sometimes; the liturgy is so beautiful one can feel a bit like a bull in a china shop. The UK abbey felt very welcoming, and you really felt like you were sharing with an extended family. It had a very good community dimension. They encourage visitors to chant with them, unlike Solesmes abbeys where it is strongly discouraged unless you are really good at it, and even then, make sure you chant at half-volume only.

I think both approaches are necessary. Some abbeys need the charism of preserving chant and crafting an exquisite (even in the OF!) liturgy which, it is hoped, will radiate outwards well beyond the cloister walls; and some abbeys need to focus on less formal community dimension of Benedictine life. Benedictine abbeys are very different, and independent, and that is another “tradition” in the Church.

The notion that one-size-fits-all for the Roman Church has no grounding in true tradition. Nor do I like the notion that the orders can of course keep their traditions, as long as it stays within their cloister.

 

[MrsWilcox]

ohhh, good topic!

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 1
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 0
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 0
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 0
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 0
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 3
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 3
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 3
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 3
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 2
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 3
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 3
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 3
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 3
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 3
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 3
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 3
t) anything else you wish to add

just my 2c.

 

[Cider]

Just an informal poll for curiosity’s sake. Copy/paste this list and rank them from 0/3 (“don’t care at all”) to 3/3 (“extremely important to me”). Any comments or qualifications are welcome. This list assumes you are a Latin-rite Catholic, so feel free to make any adjustments relevant to your rite if you are not but want to participate

a) celebrating Holy Mass with the celebrant facing ad orientem 3/3
b) celebrating Holy Mass with the Canon recited silently 0/3
c) celebrating Holy Mass with the ordinary in Latin 3/3
d) celebrating Holy Mass with few responses from the laity 3/3
e) celebrating Holy Mass with the Asperges, Psalm 42, Secret, Last Gospel, et al. 3/3
f) celebrating High Mass with chant and/or traditional hymns instead of modern music 3/3
g) only permitting Holy Communion to be received on the tongue 3/3
h) only permitting Holy Communion to be received while kneeling on altar rails 3/3 ( obvoously allowing exceptions for health or infirmity)
i) that dressing nicely and wearing veils are more encouraged when celebrating Holy Mass 3/3
j) that homilies more clearly stress the reality of sin, Hell, etc. 3/3
k) that ‘liberal’ translations of the Bible are discouraged/banned compare to more ‘conservative’ translations 3/3
l) restoring many suppressed feasts/vigils to the Roman Calendar 3/3
m) that the Holy See and bishops excommunicate politicians that support abortion, same-sex “marriage”, etc. 3/3
n) that the Holy See and bishops make specific clarifications on many teachings of Vatican II 3/3
o) that the Holy See and bishops (more) aggressively condemn religious and moral indifferentism 3/3
p) that ecumenism efforts be more stressful of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ and that all others are in error 3/3
q) that church exteriors be in more traditional art forms (Romanesque, Gothic, Baroque, etc.) 3/3
r) that church interiors have more traditional altars, art, statues, etc. 3/3
s) that fasting/abstinence on Fridays is required/encouraged as they were before Vatican II 3/3
t) anything else you wish to add

God bless!