How important is beauty in a translation?

[TimothyH]

TIm, you’re right. But I also have a difficult time in thinking that translations are directly inspired by God, especially when copyrights and royalties seem to be the main motivator. I think Cardinal Arinze referred to some of these people who are so motivated as “iconoclasts.”

Some of that is definitely happening but it is important to separate the Sacred Texts themselves from the wrapper many corporations put around the Bible - footnotes, commentaries by famous theologians, essays and word studies, maps, concordances, etc. These are not the Bible but things man added to the Bible.

As to the texts themselves, they will never be perfect, yet the word of God survives by God’s providence until today.

God became man and offered the sacrifice of himself in a particular place and particular time, yet his presence comes to us sacramentally, substantially and really in the sacraments of the Church, particularly in the Eucharist, to this day. Similarly, (not exactly) the word of God came to us by specific authors in specific languages at specific times but is made present to us today in the sacred texts as interpreted by the Church.

***Those to whom Jesus spoke directly were given the task of proclaiming the Good News to all nations until the termination of the ages. By the power of the Holy Spirit a potent emembrance of the Word was created, an anamnesis, which could be handed on from generation to generation first orally, and then in writing. So, in a certain sense it can be said, the Word became text and dwelt among us. God’s life giving Word underwent a further emptying (or kenosis) and presents itself through marks on a page; sacred words received, handed on, interpreted, translated – subject to a thousand vicissitudes – but still
mysteriously mediating the power of the Holy Spirit to bring dead letters and dead souls to life. ***

I suggest reading the rest of this short paper on lectio divina titled “And the Word Became Text” by Michael Casey OCSO.benedictine-oblates.org/2013/txt/txt-03-en.pdf

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

As to the texts themselves, they will never be perfect, yet the word of God survives by God’s providence until today.

Meant to say that the translations will never be perfect. Did not mean to say that the texts will never be perfect.

-Tim-

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Paintings are not the inspired word of God.

A painting is a depiction, not a translation. Paintings depict Sacred Scripture but they will never be what Sacred Scripture is - the breathed word of God.

However great Michaelangelo’s depiction of the Last Supper, it will never be a replacement for inspired, breathed word of God no matter what language or translation is used.

-Tim-

That is a wonderful point, Tim, and so, so true.

 

[ProVobis]

That is a wonderful point, Tim, and so, so true.

Yes, but try telling that to a 7-yr old kid who gets more meaning from a Michelangelo painting or from Biblical movies than some of that “beautiful” text intended for someone who has some education in English. Have you checked the average reading scores of Americans lately? Quibbling whether it’s a depiction, interpretation, translation, really?

 

[Lucretius]

To be fair to Fr. Knox, ‘vinegar’ is actually the traditional way to translate oinos or acetum. That’s how Bibles from I would guess before the 1900s tended to translate the word, at least. It isn’t inaccurate, because ‘vinegar’ back then was really just wine that had gone rancid. In fact, guess where the word ‘vinegar’ came from: the French vin aigre ‘sour wine’.

Technically speaking, the ‘wine vinegar’ offered to Jesus is likely posca, a drink made out of wine vinegar and water, plus some flavoring, the standard beverage of soldiers in the Roman army. There was originally no word for posca in Greek, so the gospels simply called it oinos ‘(wine) vinegar’, which is after all what it is made of.

OK, so its not a misunderstanding on Father Knox’s part, but rather on mine.

Thanks for the information!

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Yes, but try telling that to a 7-yr old kid who gets more meaning from a Michelangelo painting or from Biblical movies than some of that “beautiful” text intended for someone who has some education in English. Have you checked the average reading scores of Americans lately? Quibbling whether it’s a depiction, interpretation, translation, really?

No, I haven’t checked. However, I do go to college (and I’m a 5th year theology student) with people who cannot put together a coherent sentence. Most of them cannot. I wonder how they remain in school or even got out of high school.

We were recommending a translation for a very literate adult who appreciates elegantly written English, though.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I think - this is just my personal opinion - that a real lover of God’s word looks past the translation and sees beauty regardless.

A real lover of Scripture, someone who like King David “Meditates on the word of God day and night” will have multiple translations. For 99.9% of us, there really is no valid reason not to have and use multiple translations.

On the other hand, I know monks who do lectio divina for an hour every day and who chant the Psalms seven times each day with whatever translation is placed before them. These are men of great holiness and virtue, closer to God than we will ever be on this side of the grave.

My point is that the real beauty in any translation is proportional to how much we allow it to bring us closer to God.

-Tim-

I grew up in a Carmelite cloister in France (my aunt was the Mother Superior) and I still get up at 3:00 am each morning to pray. I practice lectio divina each day and though I prefer the Douay-Rheims version, I, too, will use any Catholic bible I happen to have. I do not pray all of the Divine Office, but I try to at least pray Vespers.

 

[TimothyH]

Yes, but try telling that to a 7-yr old kid who gets more meaning from a Michelangelo painting or from Biblical movies than some of that “beautiful” text intended for someone who has some education in English. Have you checked the average reading scores of Americans lately? Quibbling whether it’s a depiction, interpretation, translation, really?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13096283&postcount=6

I rest my case.

-Tim-

 

[tvknight415]

I grew up in a Carmelite cloister in France (my aunt was the Mother Superior) and I still get up at 3:00 am each morning to pray. I practice lectio divina each day and though I prefer the Douay-Rheims version, I, too, will use any Catholic bible I happen to have. I do not pray all of the Divine Office, but I try to at least pray Vespers.

So Lily, I would love to hear more. How did you come to grow up with the Carmelites? You don’t have to respond if it was due to something painful, but I am really curious.

 

[ProVobis]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13096283&postcount=6

I rest my case.

-Tim-

Don’t understand your point. Many say Michelangelo’s depiction of the Last Supper is wrong too. My point is that many paintings and such perhaps bring more meaning to those not especially gifted in understanding the finer points of the English language, something the early Church certainly didn’t have to deal with.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

So Lily, I would love to hear more. How did you come to grow up with the Carmelites? You don’t have to respond if it was due to something painful, but I am really curious.

Oh, no, it was not painful at all. It was one of the best and most peaceful times of my life.

My parents were both diplomats and were always off to places like Kenya, the Marshall Islands, Iceland (!), Argentina, etc. I think I was a surprise; they had been married for some years before my birth, and I don’t think they expected to have any children. My mother took a leave of absence from her job until I was five, but then it was decided that I would live with my aunt, Mother Elizabeth, in the Carmelite cloister in the South of France, while my parents traveled and worked.

At first, I hated being in the cloister. I missed my parents after having had my mother at home for five years. But I soon adapted to life in the cloister. I had to work and pray with the nuns. I got up between three and four and prayed before one of the priests took me to school in the village. When I came “home” to the cloister, I had to work in the garden, cook, clean, etc. as befitted my age at the time. My special job was filling small bottles with holy water. I stayed with the Carmelites until I was eighteen and left for college in Paris.

It was always my intention to join the Carmelite Order, but God had other plans for me, and life intervened. I still keep in contact with the nuns, however, and I’ve made lifelong friends with many of them, who are still alive, of course since they were adults when I was just a kid, and the priests.

Growing up in a cloister really gives one a grounding in the Church. The books I was given to read, and as I grew older, select for myself, were only religious texts. So, I grew up with St. Teresa, St. John of the Cross, etc. I came to love it very much, and I did get to see my parents every year when they took a vacation and took me with them. It turned out to be the best of both worlds.

 

[CalCatholic]

Lily thank you for sharing that!

 

[TimothyH]

Oh, no, it was not painful at all. It was one of the best and most peaceful times of my life.

My parents were both diplomats and were always off to places like Kenya, the Marshall Islands, Iceland (!), Argentina, etc. I think I was a surprise; they had been married for some years before my birth, and I don’t think they expected to have any children. My mother took a leave of absence from her job until I was five, but then it was decided that I would live with my aunt, Mother Elizabeth, in the Carmelite cloister in the South of France, while my parents traveled and worked.

At first, I hated being in the cloister. I missed my parents after having had my mother at home for five years. But I soon adapted to life in the cloister. I had to work and pray with the nuns. I got up between three and four and prayed before one of the priests took me to school in the village. When I came “home” to the cloister, I had to work in the garden, cook, clean, etc. as befitted my age at the time. My special job was filling small bottles with holy water. I stayed with the Carmelites until I was eighteen and left for college in Paris.

It was always my intention to join the Carmelite Order, but God had other plans for me, and life intervened. I still keep in contact with the nuns, however, and I’ve made lifelong friends with many of them, who are still alive, of course since they were adults when I was just a kid, and the priests.

Growing up in a cloister really gives one a grounding in the Church. The books I was given to read, and as I grew older, select for myself, were only religious texts. So, I grew up with St. Teresa, St. John of the Cross, etc. I came to love it very much, and I did get to see my parents every year when they took a vacation and took me with them. It turned out to be the best of both worlds.

Have you considered writing a book?

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

Some of that is definitely happening but it is important to separate the Sacred Texts themselves from the wrapper many corporations put around the Bible - footnotes, commentaries by famous theologians, essays and word studies, maps, concordances, etc. These are not the Bible but things man added to the Bible.

You probably don’t realize it but translators also tend to add quite a few things to the Bible. In the English pronouns need to be added and educated guesses have to be made as to which modal verb (should, must, may, etc.) be used. The present tense has to make a decision on whether to use “he walks” versus “he is walking.” Also the subjunctive, very important in prayer among other things, is almost transparent in the English. I leave the reader to seek other examples (and there are many) of such incompatibilities and inconsistencies of ancient languages and modern languages.

Perhaps many don’t care whether the translation is “The Lord be with you” or “the Master is with you” or “the Lord is with you” but in theology it does make a difference. And btw none of them is totally accurate.

Maybe you don’t think they’re necessary but commentaries, illustrations, etc. can help to clarify where translations become too ambiguous for the proper meaning.