How important is being Arab with being Moslem?

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Verisimilitude

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The Quran states:
Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran in order that you may understand.
( سورة يوسف , Yusuf, Chapter #12, Verse #2)
A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail; A Quran in Arabic for people who know.
( سورة فصلت , Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #3)
Egyptian, Persian, Maylasian, Pakistani…are not Arabs but they seem to want to identify themself as Arab because Mohamed was, and as dictated by Islam.

How are non-Arab Moslems treated in Saudi Arabia?
 
😃 If Egyptians are not Arabs, I think that it is news to them so speak softly.
 
😃 If Egyptians are not Arabs, I think that it is news to them so speak softly.
Are the other north African nations also Arab such as Algeria, Lybia, and Moroco? Before the Arab conquest of north Africa I don’t think they were regarded as Arab.
 
Are the other north African nations also Arab such as Algeria, Lybia, and Moroco? Before the Arab conquest of north Africa I don’t think they were regarded as Arab.
It is correct that prior to the Arab conquest, North Africa was not Arab. However, the conquest of North Africa included the spread of Arabs all the way across the continent, and up into Spain. So it is correct to say that the northern tier of African countries are Arab.

In the Muslim world, and especially where the religion is concerned, national identity doesn’t mean very much. However, in the past Arabs have looked down on some other races, especially black Africans. One has only to read 1001 Nights (one of the real translations, like Sir Richard Burton’s) to see Arab racism at its worst. You can find it on the web, but I’m not going to link to it; the language and the sentiments expressed are just too vile.
 
North Africa is Arab just like the US is European.

The vast majority of Christians in Egypt are not Arabs, but Copts, the Ancient Egyptians.

For the 3/4 of Arabs in the US, who are Christian, being muslim is not important at all (but we do know a lot on islam).
 
It is correct that prior to the Arab conquest, North Africa was not Arab. However, the conquest of North Africa included the spread of Arabs all the way across the continent, and up into Spain. So it is correct to say that the northern tier of African countries are Arab.
As I understand it, 7th century Arabia was not heavily populated due to the expanse and harsh climate. At Mohameds death and the whole of Arabia under Islam consisted of many nomadic and a few densley populated towns for the period. When Islam went beyond Arabia, the Arab fighters conqured the lands but generally left only an administrative force to collect the tax from the dhimmis and taught the new converts. The army either moved on or returned to Arabia. New converts made the new armies. Saladin was a Kurd which is more Persian than Arab.
In the Muslim world, and especially where the religion is concerned, national identity doesn’t mean very much. However, in the past Arabs have looked down on some other races, especially black Africans. One has only to read 1001 Nights (one of the real translations, like Sir Richard Burton’s) to see Arab racism at its worst. You can find it on the web, but I’m not going to link to it; the language and the sentiments expressed are just too vile.
I suppose that is my point. Pre-Islam Arabia saw the Arabs in clans where family/local deity loyalty was paramount- hence all the blood fued battles and payments. Mohamed broke that tradition of family loyalty and made being Muslim paramount. Divisons were clear from the start when the first Mecca converts were preferred to the Medina Helpers until Mekka was retaken. When everyone was Moslem, with a few rare exceptions, the Arab tradition of family loyalty returned, but Islam remained paramount. Islam is pure Mohamedism, and Mohamed is Arab.

In the conqured lands the same thing took place making family loyalty take a backseat to being a Moslem…until the majority were Moslem. When those people accepted Islam they had to learn Arabic to know the unadulterated Quran, and through that mimiced Islams founder adopting an Arab persona that washed away the old culture.
As Isa Almisry noted above:
The vast majority of Christians in Egypt are not Arabs, but Copts, the Ancient Egyptians.

The other ancient Egyptians were converted to Islam or killed. Similarly the Persians and those inhabiting the lands of Syria, Babylon, and Palestine.

I watched a program the other night that quoted UBL in a tape in 2005 or so (conventional wisdom says that he is in Pakistan) that allah was in support of all muslim Arabs participating in hs jihad. Why would he say Arabs when he is being kept by non-Arab Moslems in a non-Arab country?

Iraq shows that the Shia/Sunni split is significant enough to cause a war within Islam. Christianity does not seem to have wiped out the host culture like Islam. A Greek is still a Greek, and a Swede is still a Swede if Christian or not.

I’m sure my bias is in there somewhere but when dominate in a society, Islam seems to replace the ‘natural’ culture with that of an Arab one because it is a combined social/political/religious force that insists only the Arab way of it is the correct way.

Muslim Arab investor needed for Arabic Halal restaurant in Malaysia

A search for Arab governments results:

**Algeria **@(110)

Bahrain @(57)

Comoros @(4)

Djibouti @(13)

**Egypt **@(274)

Emirates @(221)

**Iraq **@(32)

**Jordan **@(162)

Kuwait @(74)

Lebanon @(108)

Libya @(61)

Mauritania @(6)

Morocco @(123)

Oman @(81)

Palestine @(64)

Qatar @(32)

Saudi Arabia @(227)

Somalia @(0)

**Sudan **@(57)

**Syria **@(74)

Tunisia @(76)

Yemen @(74)

I would not have thought of the bolded countries as Arab.
 
Veri, I wouldn’t claim to be sure about Comoros, Djibouti, Mauritania, and Somalia, but the rest of your bolded countries are definitely Arab. In Sudan the population in the south is black African, primarily animist and Christian, while the population in the north (and the group that controls the government) is Arab. The guy who played the doctor on Star Trek-Deep Space 9 was a Sudanese Arab.
 
Veri, I wouldn’t claim to be sure about Comoros, Djibouti, Mauritania, and Somalia, but the rest of your bolded countries are definitely Arab. In Sudan the population in the south is black African, primarily animist and Christian, while the population in the north (and the group that controls the government) is Arab. The guy who played the doctor on Star Trek-Deep Space 9 was a Sudanese Arab.
They are not Arab in the sense that they were Arab people before Islam.
Lebanon: The Arabs only reached Lebanon in the 7th century, and their culture was superimposed on an already diverse population.
Almost all Algerians are Berber in origin, not Arab; the minority who identify themselves as Berber live mostly in the mountainous region…
Iraq’s are ethnic groups Arabs, Kurds and Assyrians . Other distinct groups are Iraqi Turkmen, Armenians, Persians, Shabaks and Lurs.
The first people known to history in what is now Tunisia were the Berbers.
Most Syrians are an overall Semitic Levantine people. While modern-day Syrians are commonly described as Arabs by virtue of their modern-day language and bonds to Arab culture and history — they are in fact a blend of the various ancient Semitic groups indigenous to the region who in turn admixed with later arriving Arabs.
The Arabization and Islamification of areas is changing history. The Moslem claim of Palestine being Arab/Muslim land is as wrong as saying Syria, Persia, and Egypt were always Arab lands inhabited by Arabs. As with many things Islam…if you speak a lie often enough people will believe it as true.
 
I don’t know about being a Muslim that one has to be an Arab. There are Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims who act like they are Arab. They try to immolate their Mohammed. They all walk around with white ghost suit and a long beard in the middle of the tropic. All those stuff make them smell like @#$ if you ask me.
 
I don’t know about being a Muslim that one has to be an Arab. There are Indonesian and Malaysian Muslims who act like they are Arab. They try to immolate their Mohammed. They all walk around with white ghost suit and a long beard in the middle of the tropic. All those stuff make them smell like @#$ if you ask me.
It’s not so much that being Moslem means one has to be Arab, but that non-Arab Muslims adopt the Arab persona. Islamists say Abraham was Moslem. Same as David, Moses, and Jesus. If Egypt, Palestine, and Babylon are to now be considered Arab lands from the begining of time, it suggests those figures were also Arab. They were/are not.

Some things will never be true no matter how Islam tries to change them.
 
This is an interesting question: For most Muslims and for all Muslim scholars, the only valid Quran is one that is in Arabic, so my English translation is meaningless to them. This demand is akin to the Church demanding that the OT be read only in Hebrew and the NT in Greek. On the otherhand, it’s because of how he was treated in Mecca that Malcom X left or rather, tried to reform the Nation of Islam here in the US…he was treated as an equal by all the other Muslims, be they Arab, Persian, Malyasian or Caucasion. The example of this is set by Muhammed himself who had a rather devout African who converted and would always want to announce the Call to Prayer…which begins “Allah Akbar…” Some of Muhammed’s Arab allies complained because the African couldn’t pronounce the Arab words properly and that an Arab should do the call to prayer…Muhammed’s response was that none did it with as much devotion as the African…whereby, to this day…in most places…the Arabic Call to Prayer is intentionally MISPRONOUNCED with the African’s Accent.

On the other hand…there is tension between Arab and non-arab muslims…Arabs have the holy sites, but Malyasian and Indonesian Muslims FAR outnumber the Arabs.
 
On the other hand…there is tension between Arab and non-arab muslims…Arabs have the holy sites, but Malyasian and Indonesian Muslims FAR outnumber the Arabs.
But it is fairly obvious that the Malyasian, Indonesian, Philippine Moslems adopt Arab attributes such as dress, teaching Arabic, and all such traditions that are Arabic (Islamic) at the expense of the natural culture of the land they were born into.

I had not heard that story aboput the first caller to prayer except that it was the black African who suggested the use of the voice to Mohamed rather than the bell like the Christians or the horn like the Jews.

It is another example of how Islam is problematic. Islam claims the are a capstone of all the prophets that came before, but that earlier knowled has been corrupted or lost. The first prayers were toward Jerusalem, but then changed to Mekka along with the call of prayer…all to be very different from what is supposed to be the same.

The non-Arab nations now claiming to be Arab because they are predominately Moslem. If all truth is confused it is harder to prove the untruth of any particular element.
 
It’s not so much that being Moslem means one has to be Arab, but that non-Arab Muslims adopt the Arab persona. Islamists say Abraham was Moslem. Same as David, Moses, and Jesus. If Egypt, Palestine, and Babylon are to now be considered Arab lands from the begining of time, it suggests those figures were also Arab. They were/are not.

Some things will never be true no matter how Islam tries to change them.
What is “the Arab persona”? Can you define the markers of “Arabness” that other ethnicities must adopt because of Islam?
 
But it is fairly obvious that the Malyasian, Indonesian, Philippine Moslems adopt Arab attributes such as dress, teaching Arabic, and all such traditions that are Arabic (Islamic) at the expense of the natural culture of the land they were born into.
What is the “Arabic dress” you’re referring to in these places??? A head covering of some sort (which generally isn’t used in those countries, btw) does not constitute “arab dress” anymore than nondescript pants are this or that culture’s dress.
It is another example of how Islam is problematic. Islam claims the are a capstone of all the prophets that came before, but that earlier knowled has been corrupted or lost. The first prayers were toward Jerusalem, but then changed to Mekka along with the call of prayer…all to be very different from what is supposed to be the same.
Is it that different from Christianity, where people went from worshipping in a temple to considering the temple to be God’s body in the person of Jesus?

That seems to be quite a striking change.
The non-Arab nations now claiming to be Arab because they are predominately Moslem. If all truth is confused it is harder to prove the untruth of any particular element.
There is not a single Arab nation that claims to be so because of Islam. Arabic language and cultural habits would be the defining factor, which explains why Lebanon is an Arab state and why Arab nationalism was pioneered in part by Christians (like Michel Aflaq).
 
If you want to look specifically into Arabs (as opposed to Muslims in general), then I recommend the book Understanding Arabs by Prof. Margaret Nydell. It’s an easy read by someone who’s been there and back a number of times.
 
What is “the Arab persona”? Can you define the markers of “Arabness” that other ethnicities must adopt because of Islam?
Which of these are more traditional for Malaylsia?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/images/searchtheworld/malaysia.jpg

Other than outward appearances the Arab persona is the adoption of Islamic practices that re-define the culture. If you are not Moslem your sympathies are with Islam. Do you think Abraham or Jesus was Moslem?
 
Those are both Malaysian-neither dress is even remotely Arab. Not even close.

So where is the “Arab clothing” you were talking about being popular in Malaysia?

It seems that you’re alleging outward Arab appearances based on a really, really foggy idea of what Arabs traditionally wear. What you just pictured is really not even remotely close-literally. There is not even the vaguest similiarty to what an Arab woman’s traditional garb is in those photos, except perhaps that they both cover their hair (which is not, of course, an Arab trait anymore than wearing clothes at all is an Arab trait)

Edit: I am including a link to some traditional Arab Palestinian women’s clothing: untoldlondon.org.uk/diversity/content/images/bm_palsisters_250x152.jpg
 
Is it that different from Christianity, where people went from worshipping in a temple to considering the temple to be God’s body in the person of Jesus?

That seems to be quite a striking change.
The temple is our own body.
There is not a single Arab nation that claims to be so because of Islam. Arabic language and cultural habits would be the defining factor, which explains why Lebanon is an Arab state and why Arab nationalism was pioneered in part by Christians (like Michel Aflaq).
Lebanon is not an Arab state. Never was and is still not one today. It is people like you who make Arab and Islam interchangable, and that is the point of my post. Most Christians in Lebanon do not consider themself Arab. The other indigineous Lebanonese who are Muslim accept the Arab lable because it is prefered.

Ethnic groups
Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%
note: many Christian Lebanese do not identify themselves as Arab but rather as descendents of the ancient Canaanites and prefer to be called Phoenicians.

Are you saying the Egyptians in the time of Moses were Arab? Are the Jews that entered Canaan 3000 years ago Arab?

Obviously Arabs did settle in other areas in the early jihad years after Mohamed, but that does not automatically transform the region then into Arabic lands. To say those nations are Islamic is more accurate, but I find it curious the Arab label is applied to things that are not Arab, but are done in my view to make them synonymous.

There are some Moslems that post to CAF from Egypt and a few other ME nations, or that have emigrated from them. I wish they would respond if they think they are Arab, or even if Western-born Muslims desire to be more Arab than they are. It is human nature to emulate what they think is good.
 
If you want to look specifically into Arabs (as opposed to Muslims in general), then I recommend the book Understanding Arabs by Prof. Margaret Nydell. It’s an easy read by someone who’s been there and back a number of times.
Many of the reviews make her sound like a Islamist apologist which would just confirm my belief, but I will look at the book next time I am in the book store, Thanks.
 
Lebanon is not an Arab state. Never was and is still not one today. It is people like you who make Arab and Islam interchangable, and that is the point of my post.
There are two problems with this theory of yours:
  1. Lebanon as created was majority Christian. So it was mostly not Islamic.
  2. The national language is Arabic, all the historical documents from the people there are in Arabic, and the Christians and Muslims alike pray and live…in Arabic.
Note that your statistic is “95 percent Arab”…that’s just right. And that includes Christians and Muslims, and also the fringe minority that call themselves phoenicians.
To say those nations are Islamic is more accurate, but I find it curious the Arab label is applied to things that are not Arab, but are done in my view to make them synonymous.
Uh, the Arab label is applied because the people all speak Arabic and share Arabic cultural norms. Even the ones taht aren’t Islamic (again, which is most of the people who are Lebanese.)

By your standard, even though Lebanese in this world are mostly not Muslim, we must still call them “Islamic”, because to speak Arabic means…to be Muslim, in your view? Or what?
 
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