How important is being Arab with being Moslem?

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

A flurry of posts? I only made three short ones instead of a long one. As you know, this forum does not allow someone to sit on a post for long - it makes you re-register. So do you have any other problems of that nature?

Of course the issue is Islamization and Arabization. The issue is whether the more islamic the more arabic the Muslim becomes.

This shows you didn’t read what I wrote or linked to.

Now you’re trying to nitpick when I have proven my case.

The niqab is Arabic - at least that’s what the Malaysians themselves think. It is worn by women of the Gulf states and those are Arab countries I believe.

Some say that the niqab pre-dated Islam but that is irrelevant because it has been adopted as Islamic attire. The Muslimahs wear it to conform to Allah’s wishes, as they deem it. They don’t wear it because for cultural or pagan reasons but for Islamic reasons.

The male arabic dress I see on the streets worn by the Malays is the flowing white dress like a galabiyya. It is not worn by many Malays but by the most pious.

Your points are moot on this thread so far. Naming garments from Central and South Asia, commonly worn in Malaysia, does not constitute proving that Arab-ness is important to being Muslim

So you think the niqab is a garment from South East Asia?

 

[pro_universal]

The niqab is Arabic - at least that’s what the Malaysians themselves think. It is worn by women of the Gulf states and those are Arab countries I believe.

It’s not commonly worn in the gulf states, but in any case, it’s not from Arabia. I challenge you to find a single example of a Malaysian Muslim saying that Malaysians have to be more Arab to be real Muslims.

Some say that the niqab pre-dated Islam but that is irrelevant because it has been adopted as Islamic attire.

Boy, this is going to be rough.

The subject of this thread is whether or not you must be Arab to be Muslim. Hence, whether or not the attire worn by Muslims is actually Arab attire is precisely relevant to this issue. It’s absolutely ridiculous to say “eh, so the niqab isn’t really Arab, but if people wear it that must prove that Muslims have to be like Arabs anyway”.

This failure of yours to understand the issue of Arabization versus Islamization should require no further comment.

The male arabic dress I see on the streets worn by the Malays is the flowing white dress like a galabiyya. It is not worn by many Malays but by the most pious.

Yeah, just one problem: the galabiyya and related dishdasha are virtually un-used in South Asia.

You do see the common variations of the shalwar kameez, like the baju melayu, but your claim that people are wearing the legless Arab costumes is simply wrong. I haven’t seen it even once in all of my time in Southeast Asia.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Of course, this Malaysian Surgeon doesn’t know what he was talking about when he wrote this:

The obsession of these religious schools focus on aping the Arabs rather than propagating the message of Islam. On the one hand Malays have a phobia about being colonized by the West, but they have no compulsion of being mentally and culturally colonized by the Bedouins. Malay students go out of their way to blindly ape the Arabs, never mind that those thick flowing robes and huge turbans are totally inappropriate for tropical Malaysia.

An Education System Worthy of Malaysia by M. Bakri Musa. iUniverse 2003. Pg 96. ISBN 0595265901.

 

[pro_universal]

Of course, this Malaysian Surgeon doesn’t know what he was talking about when he wrote this:

The obsession of these religious schools focus on aping the Arabs rather than propagating the message of Islam. On the one hand Malays have a phobia about being colonized by the West, but they have no compulsion of being mentally and culturally colonized by the Bedouins. Malay students go out of their way to blindly ape the Arabs, never mind that those thick flowing robes and huge turbans are totally inappropriate for tropical Malaysia.

An Education System Worthy of Malaysia by M. Bakri Musa. iUniverse 2003. Pg 96. ISBN 0595265901.

He clearly did not-turbans!? What percentage of Arabs wear a turban? Like .1?

Bizarre. In response to my pointing out that you didn’t list examples of Arab culture or clothing, you list another dubious claim (turbans are unknown except on the heads of sikhs in that part of the world-you should be mindful that I’ve spent much time there) about an item of clothing that isn’t common of Arabs either.

What’s most likely happening here is that you simply are not familiar enough with Arab clothing to recognize it, and have therefore labelled all long shirts and baggy pants as “Arab clothing” because Muslims wear them.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

It’s not commonly worn in the gulf states,

Red herring about the ‘commonly worn’. I said it was worn in the Gulf states.

“Women in niqabs do not sit at the counter. They take administrative jobs,” said Abdullah Naser, a manager at a Dubai post office. “Clients need to know who they are talking to.”

Face veils have been a hot political issue in many countries over the rights of wearers to attend schools in secular societies or become policewomen, teachers or other jobs that involve interacting with the public.

They are particularly common in the Gulf states where many women cover their faces in public, driven by conservative traditions and powerful clerics who advise that Muslim women must wear the niqab.

khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?col=&section=todaysfeatures&xfile=data/todaysfeatures/2007/August/todaysfeatures_August21.xml

pro:

but in any case, it’s not from Arabia. I challenge you to find a single example of a Malaysian Muslim saying that Malaysians have to be more Arab to be real Muslims.

Read herring. I have proven that the more Islamic the more Arab. It’s a social trend that doesn’t need to be articulated.

pro:

Boy, this is going to be rough.

Only because you make it rough for yourself.

pro:

The subject of this thread is whether or not you must be Arab to be Muslim. Hence, whether or not the attire worn by Muslims is actually Arab attire is precisely relevant to this issue. It’s absolutely ridiculous to say “eh, so the niqab isn’t really Arab, but if people wear it that must prove that Muslims have to be like Arabs anyway”.

This failure of yours to understand the issue of Arabization versus Islamization should require no further comment.

Have I said that you must be Arab to be a Muslim? Why do you keep trying to make straw men arguments?

I was addressing your point here:

pro:

Those are both Malaysian-neither dress is even remotely Arab. Not even close.

So where is the “Arab clothing” you were talking about being popular in Malaysia?

I was showing that the Arab costumes – e.g. the niqab is becoming popular in Malaysia.

pro:

Yeah, just one problem: the galabiyya and related dishdasha are virtually un-used in South Asia.

So Dr Bakri Musa is wrong and you’re right. He’s a Malaysian by the way writing about the Malaysian education system.

pro:

You do see the common variations of the shalwar kameez, like the baju melayu, but your claim that people are wearing the legless Arab costumes is simply wrong. I haven’t seen it even once in all of my time in Southeast Asia.

You obviously haven’t seen what Bakri Musa and I saw.

---

Call Bakri Musa bizarre if you can’t disprove his point about the arab flowing robes. If you want to see an Arab turban here it is.
kennysia.com/images/photos/2007/20070415-7.jpg

Have you been to Egypt? That’s an Arab country, you know.

Oh…. The niqab is Arab dress all right – see above.

 

[pro_universal]

More of the same-you are ignoring the fundamental problem here, which is that you’ve identified only clothing that is decidedly not Arab in origin.

Citing an article about the some women in the gulf who wear a niqab doesn’t demonstrate anything. There are gulf women who wear burqas too-but those aren’t examples of “Arab culture”, because the clothing itself is an import into Arab culture, not an export.

The OP of this thread was alleging that being Muslim means being more Arab. It is quite frustrating that you seem unable to grasp the simple truth that, in order to prove this claim, you have to show how Arab customs are making it into other countries via Islam, not how non-Arab customs are making it into Arabia, or how Malaysian Muslims wear different clothes than other Malaysians.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

More of your nonsense, pro.

The niqab is definitely Arab. You want to claim against all the evidence that it is not.

For the geographical area of this encyclopaedia, the niqab is common in countries like Saudi Arabia, but is in use in most of the other countries, save Turkey. In Egypt, the niqab is quickly gaining ground. i-cias.com/e.o/niqab.htm

Where it originated is irrelevant since it is commonly taken by the Muslims themselves as being an Islamic attire and is worn by Arabs.

You then tried to attack evidence from REAL Malaysians who should know better than you.

You claimed only 1 Arab wears the turban? Shows you know nothing about Arab clothing. Have you heard of the imama? The Arabs wear the imama turban as their clothing.

livingislam.org/k/tti_e.html
The turban tradition in Islam
by Shaykh. G. F. Haddad
… An Arab saying goes, “Turbans are the crowns of the Arabs”.

Want to know about what the Malaysians themselves say about the wearing of Arab dress by Malaysian?

MENJ : I said that the turban and jubah is generally an Islamic religious attire

It is not. Alot of Muslims world wide do not wear jubah and turban unless they wanted to ape the Arab. On the other hand, Arab Muslims and otherwise wears Jubah and turban.

MENJ :…worn by the Prophet (peace be upon him) who was an Arab (and hence a Sunnah), with Arabism as its defining identity.

Oh, I can understand Arabism is the defining identity of Muslims. My doubt is, Do Muslims need to be Arabs for their faith to be accepted by Allah? Do a Malay Muslim need to address his brother in Islam with “ya akhi” rather then “saudaraku” in order to secure a place in jannath El-Firdaus? Do a Malay shoolboy need to wear a jubah and turban to be considered a complete Muslim?

menj.org/loudspeakers/serban-issue-an-encroachment-of-religious-freedom-of-muslims/

What is a Jubba?

**Our Men’s authentic Arabian Jubba is a deluxe suit-style jacket, intended to be worn over a traditional dishadasha (not included.) **Sometimes referred to as an Imam’s coat, this is the same high quality Jubba worn by Clerics and others in Middle Eastern countries. Our professionally tailored men’s jubba has a traditional collar, shoulder pads and satin lining which extends to waist-including arms. Buttons which are hidden by front panel, reach down to waist for ease of walking and ease of salat. Garment has two interior buttoned, breast pockets and finished side slits for ease of accessing pockets of undergarments. Fabric is a high quality poly blend that provides coverage, yet is breathable in warmer climates. Available in: Charcoal, Brown, Grey, Navy, and Black. Can be hemmed if necessary. Dry Clean only. Imported from Syria. alhannah.com/products/me457.html

So what do we know from the Malaysians?

The Malays are beginning to wear the Arab flowing dress and turban (probably the imama) and the jubba (from Arabia).

Their women are beginning to wear the niqab - which you laughably said was uncommon in the Gulf States.

Keep on going, pro - thanks for the laughs.

 

[pro_universal]

The niqab is definitely Arab. You want to claim against all the evidence that it is not.

Your reasoning on this point is deeply flawed. The suit and tie are common in Turkey-but that does not make the suit and tie a “traditional item of Turkish clothing”. Showing that women wear Niqabs in Arabia and somewhere else does not even remotely show that Arab culture imposes itself on others through Islam; indeed, since the niqab and burqa are not from Arabia, that would be a case of Islam getting Arabs to draw things from outside their culture.

The niqab and burqa both do not originate from Arabia-you are wrong on this point.

The Malays are beginning to wear the Arab flowing dress and turban (probably the imama) and the jubba (from Arabia).

Their women are beginning to wear the niqab - which you laughably said was uncommon in the Gulf States.

What is laughable is apparently your imperviousness to rational thought-think about this for a second:

If I show you pictures of Arab businessmen in suits, and then show pictures of French in suits, does that prove that the French are copying Arabs? No…yet you stubbornly insist that niqabs in two countries must prove that it is Arab culture being copied in another.

Here, by the way, is what the Muslim Dr. Musa actually wrote in his book: books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595265901&page=96

Odd, but that looks to me like a Muslim saying that imitating Arabs is not only silly, but has nothing to do with preaching the religion.

You never fail in your googling to find facts that either contradict what you are saying, or are totally irrelevant (like the stuff you posted about niqabs.) Google simply will not serve you if you cannot analyze the question properly, and this is something you have failed to do here.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Who cares about where the niqab and burqa originated. The burqa is Afghan but we generally use it in the West to generalize for all full-covering Muslim garments. But you’re still hung up on the burqa, aren’t you?

The Malaysians themselves bemoan the wearing of Arab clothing as a phenomenon associated with islamization. That is what they say. Bakri Musa and the intellocutor in the Menj blog say this. They explicitly link the wearing of Arab clothing with extreme islamization. But you keep on ignoring that and claiming that isn’t true.

Oh… Musa didn’t say apeing the Arabs has nothing to do with religion. Don’t forget those that teach the apeing are the RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS.

The obsession of these religious schools focus on aping the Arabs rather than propagating the message of Islam. On the one hand Malays have a phobia about being colonized by the West, but they have no compulsion of being mentally and culturally colonized by the Bedouins. Malay students go out of their way to blindly ape the Arabs, never mind that those thick flowing robes and huge turbans are totally inappropriate for tropical Malaysia.

An Education System Worthy of Malaysia by M. Bakri Musa. iUniverse 2003. Pg 96. ISBN 0595265901.

He is merely saying that the religious schools are misguided in mistaking Arabization for Islam - why do they ape the Arabs - because they feel it is more pious of them to do so.

As for my supposed failure to prove my point:

If you’ve ever been to Malaysia you’d know that it is the more pious Muslims who ape the Arabs. But then again, all you do is deny that the niqab and the turban are Arab costumes, despite the clear evidence that they are.

Did you read this?
Do a Malay shoolboy need to wear a jubah and turban to be considered a complete Muslim?
menj.org/loudspeakers/serban-issue-an-encroachment-of-religious-freedom-of-muslims/

Did you read the MalaysiaToday blog?

It is true but sad that in the process of becoming more Islamic, the malays are apeing the Arabs, at least as far as costumes are concerned.

Wearing Arab garb in a humid environment is unhealthy. The desert of Middle East is not humid. It is as ridiculous as wearing a dark three piece suit in the Malaysian hot sun. The only difference is that I am told that wearing Arab garb is holy and GOD wants me to do it.

I guess those Malaysian opinions are not important.

 

[Sura10_Ayat94]

MOHAMMAD DID WHAT…? (Violence recorded in the Hadith)

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) stoned (to death) a person from Banu Aslam, and a Jew and his wife. Book 017, Number 4216:

“***The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.” ***Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515

Abd Allah ibn Sa’ed (Omr ibn al-Khatab servant) said: ***“Arab Christians are not Christians, I am not leaving them until they become Muslims or I cut their throats.” ***(Kanzu ‘umal – al mutka al hindi – vol. 4, No. 11770) Omar ibn al-Khatab (the second caliph)

***“The prophet (Mohammad) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina and did not cauterize (their bleeding limbs) till they died”. ***Sahih Al- Bukhair, Vol 8, Book 82, Hadith 795.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: ***Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” ***Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, ***“O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).” The Prophet said, “You may say it.” ***(Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369)

Sira, p463-4: Then they {the tribe of Quraiza} surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of Bani al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy bin Akhtab and Kab bin Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. This went on until the Apostle made an end of them.

“Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe: embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation).” (Mohammad Ibn Ismaiel al-Bukhari: The Translation of the meanings, vol.4 book 56, no. 2941, translated M.Khan (1997) –source ‘Religion of Peace by Robert Spencer (2007)

Example: Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.” Allah’s Apostle said, “I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.” So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). ***They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died ***(Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, “They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.”) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)

Another Hadith also a chilling note: “when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552) (reference form ‘Inside Islam’ Pg. 120)

‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’" Sahih Al-Bukhari: Vol 4, Book 52, No 260

Great exemplar to the world as an ‘alleged’ last prophet for mankind! ***

DID JESUS COMMAND or COMMITT ANY OF THIS.** **yet what is critically important is that according to Allah himself (speaking through Muhammad via the Qur’an) Muhammad is the most “beautiful pattern of conduct” and “example” for mankind to follow *(Qur’an 33:21)

 

[pro_universal]

Who cares about where the niqab and burqa originated. The burqa is Afghan but we generally use it in the West to generalize for all full-covering Muslim garments. But you’re still hung up on the burqa, aren’t you?

This is just silly. The whole point of this thread is to allege that where Islam goes, Arab things must follow. So if you are claiming that then niqab and burqa are signs of Arabization, you have to show that they come from…Arabs.

What they are is an example of the opposite: bringing foreign clothing and practices into Arabia because of Islam.

So what we have here is a thread where the exact opposite of the OP’s claim has been shown-that is why the origins of the clothing in question matter.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Again, so in what way are the Indonesians, Malaysians, Pakistanis, Afghanistanis, Iranians, Turks, Somalians, Tajiks, Khazaks, Uzbeks, Krgyz, and Bosniak peoples Arabs? Can you please provide one shred of evidence to support the conclusion that any of these people (the vast majority of the Muslim world) are in any meaningful way “Arab”?

In an earlier post :

I watched a program the other night that quoted UBL in a tape in 2005 or so (conventional wisdom says that he is in Pakistan) that allah was in support of all muslim Arabs participating in hs jihad. Why would he say Arabs when he is being kept by non-Arab Moslems in a non-Arab country?

If we are in agreement that those countries you list are not Arab then why would OBL say that? (Note that quote does not list those countries you do- so you changed my question on me.) In the same way UBL says it to reinforce Islamic unity in Pakistan, Fata and Hamas do so in Israel and the self imposed ghetto of the Semetic people in the non-state of paelstine. Iran has always retained the Persian distinction and is not a debate, it is of note that they are a splinter and rejected by the 80% Sunni Moslem theology.

I am responding only to the above because the rest of your post is just bizarre. Five minutes on google will show you that Lebanon was created as a majority Christian country-and that historically it has always had a Christian majority (now down to 40 percent after the civil war of the 80’s)

It’s easy reading and answers your questions. Something you never do which is why it is bizarre to you. Reading books is better than Google. The last 60 years is not the epitome of Lebanons history to disregard the last 1000 years of Islams influence on its. Just like Pakistan and Afghanistan…and soon to be Maylasia will be thought of as Arab like Lebanon and Moroco is today.
Morocco’s population is predominantly Berber ethnically, and today is completely Islamized and dominantly Arabized.

Isa makes a good point as usual.

Actually maybe a better analogy is that the Arabs are Arabs the way the Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italians are Latins. In fact, the population is descended mostly from the Germanic invaders, the Celtic and Basque substratum, etc. in the Romance countries.

Rodrigo makes good points too. The influence of Islam carries with it it’s Arab roots , and Arab in that sense is not like Arab is to the entire Middle East and North Africa (Such as France is to Latin) but to Saudi Arabia and Mohamed in particular.

 

[dolphinlove]

I watched a doco on fox about an english woman that went to Mecca.
Also they did a story on some black muslims.
I must admit, from what i saw, they were treated pretty poorly.
The arabs do look down on muslims that are not arabic.
It was more their mannerism towards these people than anything else.

 

[MugenOne]

This is what I’ve been trying to tell others. Arab Muslims are racist like hell toward non-Arab Muslims i.e. Indonesian, Malaysian, Indian, Filipino, African, etc. They might worship in the same mosque, but the similarity stops there. There is no such thing as we’re brother. During the Hajj, Arabs stay in Arab tents, Indonesians stay in theirs. That’s racism and segregation.

I watched a doco on fox about an english woman that went to Mecca.
Also they did a story on some black muslims.
I must admit, from what i saw, they were treated pretty poorly.
The arabs do look down on muslims that are not arabic.
It was more their mannerism towards these people than anything else.

 

[paarsurrey]

This is what I’ve been trying to tell others. Arab Muslims are racist like hell toward non-Arab Muslims i.e. Indonesian, Malaysian, Indian, Filipino, African, etc. They might worship in the same mosque, but the similarity stops there. There is no such thing as we’re brother. During the Hajj, Arabs stay in Arab tents, Indonesians stay in theirs. That’s racism and segregation.

Hi

That shows that the Arabs need much effort for being TrueMuslims. I think it may be one of the reasons that GodAllahYHWH did not send PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 in the Arabs but in a non-Arab land.

Thanks