How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[The_Bucket]

And the plain old fact that a woman has had sex with many men is simply gross to me from a instinctual biological perspective, it literally grosses me out. I can’t change the way i feel about and don’t think I should have to.

This is far more instructive, and probably truthful, than anything else you’ve said on the matter. You’re just “grossed out” by women who have been promiscuous. And yet you probably don’t have any problem high-fiving your bro who just masturbated ten minutes ago.

 

[holy_face]

This is far more instructive, and probably truthful, than anything else you’ve said on the matter. You’re just “grossed out” by women who have been promiscuous. And yet you probably don’t have any problem high-fiving your bro who just masturbated ten minutes ago.

 

[Galbin]

Sure a real prostitute will have larger number but at that high of a count I consider it not much different, it is a number that places her in the same category.

No. It really doesn’t. Unless the woman was somehow into prostitution for only a few weeks.

A friends with benefits relationship is not usually exclusive, they are are still very often hooking up with other people during this.

Actually, FWBs is usually a situation where one of them wants a relationship, and the other wants easy sex. One of many reasons it is a bad arrangement.

I can still have respect for and interact with a woman who has had numerous partners, it does not matter as much to me in those circumstances. It is just when considering such a person for marriage and commitment. Having sex with, marrying and having children with a woman who has had 50 partners, yes that makes me want to vomit. I wouldn’t do it plain and simple.

But why?

huh? You are mistaking me, I am not hitting on young girls I am just pointing out that an attractive athletic man has more options than settling for a 30 something year old woman with a long list of partners, infertility, and a desperate need to settle down as fast as she can due to the biological clock. He has options which include younger girls that have not had as many partners, is fertile, and is looking for a relationship without a sense of desperation.

Again, why are you assuming that all single women in their 30s are desperate and infertile? Do you not belive in true love? It sounds like you see picking a woman as not being chosen or guided by God at all, but rather akin to choosing the nicest steak at the market.

A woman with a promiscuous past could be the nicest person I have ever met, and may become a great friend and someone I admire and respect as a person, but that is different than having value as a wife.

Why?

 

[The_Bucket]

It sounds like you see picking a woman as not being chosen or guided by God at all, but rather akin to choosing the nicest steak at the market.

Quite. You apparently figure out your own value and then try to select whatever is at the top end of your price range. Or something. Not a vocation, but more a transaction.

 

[holy_face]

My word, that is a shocking survey to me! I still think these people must be outside the norm. My American friends do not have anywhere near that number.

I would strongly disagree that 50 partners is like a prostitute. Most prostitutes are well above that number by hundreds if not thousands. 50 partners would be a very financially useless endeavour for a poor women trapped in the sex industry.

Why on earth would you want to vomit if your spouse had multiple partners? I can understand feeling jealous or sad that they hadn’t waited, but why on earth would that repulse you so much? Would you be repulsed if you met a man who’d had 50 partners?

To me it is not much different, sure a real prostitute is much worse, but at 50, in my eyes it is in the same category, someone I would prefer to wear a biological hazard suit if I got very close to them.

As for fertility, that apparently depends. Age is no guarantee of that. I totally disagree that “the longer a woman remains single the more partners she will have”. Many unmarried women nowadays go from long term relationship to LTR so may have only slept with a handful of people.

fertility drops at age 25 for women in general, nothing is a 100% certain but there are things that are generally true from a scientific perspective.

Why do you have to assume the worst about anyone, ever?

In today’s world it is probably better to err on the side of caution

 

[holy_face]

No, I don’t believe that we have soul mates or the special “one” that God guides us to. I have never seen any scripture or Catholic teaching that makes such a claim. There are people who we are more compatible with on a number of levels and those who are less so.

 

[holy_face]

Why am I grossed out by considering a very promiscuous woman for marriage? Because I am, it’s as simple as that. I don’t see why i need to explain it any further than that.

 

[holy_face]

Quite. You apparently figure out your own value and then try to select whatever is at the top end of your price range. Or something. Not a vocation, but more a transaction.

No it is really not that cold for me. The vocation, the personal connection, love and all still needs to be there. But I do not consider making that bond with someone cheaply, a promiscuous woman does not have the same value as a virgin does for such a commitment of all of my life and resources.

I have met many promiscuous women in my life, and I had no problem taking them out of consideration before things even got to a level where such a deep connection would be made. I have made a few mistakes by falling for such women and there was never a good result. I learned to value myself more from those experience and this brought me better experiences.

God gives us instruction through scripture and the church teachings about what kind of people we should pursue for marriage, and you guys are trying to argue with that and say it doesn’t matter. I choose to follow God’s instruction instead, as well as listening to my life experience.

 

[The_Bucket]

God gives us instruction through scripture and the church teachings about what kind of people we should pursue for marriage, and you guys are trying to argue with that and say it doesn’t matter. I choose to follow God’s instruction instead, as well as listening to my life experience.

That is absurd. I’m not denying temporal effects of sin. I’m not even saying that one has to give everyone a “fair shot” at earning another’s romantic love. I’m not even arguing that it is not imprudent to consider past history/behavior when considering whether someone would be a good fit for exploring a romantic relationship.

What I’m digging at is precisely what you brought up. That for all the cover story involved, your just plain find women who have engaged in previous sexual relationships “gross.” And I’m saying that is quite an un-Christian attitude to have. After all, is your bro who just masturbated ten minutes ago “icky?” What about the dude you know who has hooked up with 30 girls? Is he “gross” too or does it just pertain to women, after all, he’s clearly demonstrating a high value.

I hate that rhetoric. With a passion. We all have the same value period and end of discussion. Whether certain individuals are compatible or whether marrying someone with an extensive history is a wise decision is a different matter. Personal likes or dislikes are fine. Some people are attracted to certain eye color or hair color or even race. That’s totally A-OK! And saying something to the effect of “a long sexual history would give me pause, even if it was clear this person had change his/her ways” is again, fine. That shows prudence.

You’re not expressing the importance of prudence. You’re ranking people based on perceived material and ethereal value and that’s really messed up. Like a virgin or a girl who has slept with only a couple of guys is “cleaner” than someone who has had more sexual partners… regardless of other redeeming qualities.

Was I “cleaner” than most men because I was a virgin… despite my other sins of impurity? Is a woman with say, 15 previous sexual partners but who also serves the poor and sick on a daily basis better or worse than one with one sexual partner but who doesn’t care a lick about the less fortunate?

The sexual marketplace may be a real thing, but it’s not something which we as Christians should participate in. Temporal effects of past sin only exist because we as humans are not as forgiving as God. We decline to forgive ourselves and others do not forgive us. If we were as good as the Lord at forgiveness, then there would be no temporal effect of sin.

So yeah, we need to stress the importance of remaining chaste because a) it’s the right thing and b) we as human beings forgive ourselves and others imperfectly. But we should also strive to overcome those “feelings of ickiness” and that imperfect forgiveness and forgive and forget the way God forgives and forgets.

 

[GEddie]

This is far more instructive, and probably truthful, than anything else you’ve said on the matter. You’re just “grossed out” by women who have been promiscuous. And yet you probably don’t have any problem high-fiving your bro who just masturbated ten minutes ago.

Although I am aware of the Thomistic and ecclesial teachings related to the “m word”, it is crystal clear to me why a male might be far less bothered by that that than by female promiscuousness.

In regard to the “m word,” only the culprit’s body is ever involved; in promiscuous sex, many bodies are involved in the most intimate fashion. And we all have an aversion, deep in our unconscious mind, to biological contact (ie, beyond the skin cells) with people who are not our romantic partner. Consider the morbid fascination of little boys for body fluids; it doesn’t go away, it just goes unconscious.

ICXC NIKA

 

[The_Bucket]

Although I am aware of the Thomistic and ecclesial teachings related to the “m word”, it is crystal clear to me why a male might be far less bothered by that that than by female promiscuousness.

In regard to the “m word,” only the culprit’s body is ever involved; in promiscuous sex, many bodies are involved in the most intimate fashion. And we all have an aversion, deep in our unconscious mind, to biological contact (ie, beyond the skin cells) with people who are not our romantic partner. Consider the morbid fascination of little boys for body fluids; it doesn’t go away, it just goes unconscious.

ICXC NIKA

I’m not saying that I don’t understand why from a superficial standpoint; I’m saying that we are called to get past those feelings and recognize the spiritual reality. Christ Himself pretty well squared away the notion that those feelings of ickiness are to be overcome when he dined with prostitutes, forgave traitors and thieves (tax collector) and cured lepers.

I’m not saying you have to marry a prostitute… or anyone else for that matter. I’m saying that the notion that a woman permanently “devalues herself” by having a sexual past is insane. And again, this is coming from someone who was a virgin and married another virgin.

 

[holy_face]

I’m not saying that I don’t understand why from a superficial standpoint; I’m saying that we are called to get past those feelings and recognize the spiritual reality. Christ Himself pretty well squared away the notion that those feelings of ickiness are to be overcome when he dined with prostitutes, forgave traitors and thieves (tax collector) and cured lepers.

I’m not saying you have to marry a prostitute… or anyone else for that matter. I’m saying that the notion that a woman permanently “devalues herself” by having a sexual past is insane. And again, this is coming from someone who was a virgin and married another virgin.

I have already explained myself over many pages and if you still don’t understand then we will just have to leave it that, I am actually astounded that you don’t get this. Many men do at a instinctual level, it is our biological impulses warning us of all of the potential dangers involved, and they are many as I have said over and over again. GEddie described part of it very well.

This is in addition to all of the spiritual dangers of such a woman, have you ever read the bible? Were we not warned repeatedly over women like this? There is a big difference between dining with prostitutes and marrying one.

Where are we called to get past these feelings about a potential wife? I don’t remember any such passages.

 

[GEddie]

There is a big difference between dining with prostitutes and marrying one.

Where are we called to get past these feelings about a potential wife? I don’t remember any such passages.

I have to concur with him on this.

Our LORD was not called to marry anybody; most likely because He knew He would die young. This enabled Him to spend time with people that having a wife would have kept Him away from.

That does not mean that being “choosy” in the most important interpersonal choice we will ever make, is wrong. It is no more wrong for a man to prefer a virgin as spouse than for a woman to prefer a tall man.

ICXC NIKA

 

[holy_face]

the bible tells us that we should prefer virginity, it is what God expects of those who marry, to be virgins. It is following God’s will and plan for us.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

A casual friend of mine was actually a prostitute. Because she’s very pretty, she was a high end call girl instead of working the streets, but the result was the same-she sold her body for money. She was neglected as a child and ended up in the foster care system. After aging out, she was homeless, so she turned to prostitution. After several long, gritty years that she hasn’t shared the all details of with me, she went to college and got out of the profession. After college, she completed an accelerated MBA program and married a very handsome, kind, successful, and devoutly religious surgeon. She’s spent the past several years engaged in activism for foster children, in addition to her business career. But, she’s giving up her job because she just found out that she’s pregnant. She wants to increase her activism and quit her job so that she can focus on doing good and raising her child.

She’s in her mid-30’s, and she definitely knows her worth. I have no doubt that if presented with some sort of red pill philosophy man, she would have no trouble at all saying “No, thank you. I can do better than someone that superficial and insecure”.

 

[holy_face]

A casual friend of mine was actually a prostitute. Because she’s very pretty, she was a high end call girl instead of working the streets, but the result was the same-she sold her body for money. She was neglected as a child and ended up in the foster care system. After aging out, she was homeless, so she turned to prostitution. After several long, gritty years that she hasn’t shared the all details of with me, she went to college and got out of the profession. After college, she completed an accelerated MBA program and married a very handsome, kind, successful, and devoutly religious surgeon. She’s spent the past several years engaged in activism for foster children, in addition to her business career. But, she’s giving up her job because she just found out that she’s pregnant. She wants to increase her activism and quit her job so that she can focus on doing good and raising her child.

She’s in her mid-30’s, and she definitely knows her worth. I have no doubt that if presented with some sort of red pill philosophy man, she would have no trouble at all saying “No, thank you. I can do better than someone that superficial and insecure”.

If she rejected me she would be doing me a favor, no complaints. Does her husband know of her past? If he accepts it and as fine with it then good for them, it is not something that is for me.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

If she rejected me she would be doing me a favor, no complaints. Does her husband know of her past? If he accepts it and as fine with it then good for them, it is not something that is for me.

Yes, her husband is aware of her past. It would be pretty difficult for her to use her story as an example of why throwing 18 year old kids without families, money, or educations out on their own is a bad idea if she never wanted her husband to find out.

But it’s part of her past, and she is using it to save others. This is a woman who had extremely high standards for a spouse. And frankly, I don’t think you would have been good enough for a prostitute-at least not that one.

 

[holy_face]

Yes, her husband is aware of her past. It would be pretty difficult for her to use her story as an example of why throwing 18 year old kids without families, money, or educations out on their own is a bad idea if she never wanted her husband to find out.

But it’s part of her past, and she is using it to save others. This is a woman who had extremely high standards for a spouse. And frankly, I don’t think you would have been good enough for a prostitute-at least not that one.

It does not bother me, it is her life and as I said I would not want that for me anyway, I would never choose this for me. If her family is happy then that is great!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It does not bother me, it is her life and as I said I would not want that for me anyway, I would never choose this for me. If her family is happy then that is great!

And that’s fine, you aren’t obligated to marry anyone you don’t want to.

However, you are deluding yourself if you think sexual history or lack thereof puts you above or below someone in “value”.

 

[holy_face]

And that’s fine, you aren’t obligated to marry anyone you don’t want to.

However, you are deluding yourself if you think sexual history or lack thereof puts you above or below someone in “value”.

The value really only pertains to how I feel about myself, my value as a person to have certain expectation of someone I would spend the rest of my life with. It is about how I value myself and my own dignity as a person. It has nothing to do with any societal value or ranking in general, in the eyes of the world or God. I am not placing people in some sort of societal hierarchy or myself.