How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[holy_face]

It is true that the purpose of marriage is twofold: for the procreation and education of children, and for getting the spouses to heaven. That does not mean that a person who does not marry until their 30s is practicing birth control. That is a ridiculous statement. Building a career is hard work. Finding a spouse is sometimes heartbreaking and grueling, too. The proper approach is chaste relationships while dating, discerning marriage, getting married and then entering a sexual relationship. If one is 25 or 45 or 65, it does not matter. You have set up a false dichotomy here: either chaste marriage early in life OR promiscuity if one fails to find a spouse early.
.

I talking about a very specific type of woman here, one that deliberately puts off marriage to pursue her independent womanhood and to have fun in your youth. This is indeed a type of birth control, The modern day feminist.

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“Procreation is a very major part of Catholic marriage, and delaying marriage until your 30s when you are becoming infertile to have your fun and build your career in your 20s is just another form of birth control, regardless if that is your intention on not. Getting married when you are fertile and before you have built a huge array of sexual partners is very much the Catholic marriage. I would welcome any Catholic theologian to come here and try to dispute that. People waiting until their 30s to get married, on the scale it is now, is very much a new phenomenon and is clearly not what God intended, or he would have created women to be fertile for much longer. People used to get married much earlier.”

Do have a look at this table, which shows median age of first marriage in the US from 1890 to 2010.

infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

We start in 1890 with the median man marrying at 26 and the median woman marrying at 22–this is not terribly early, as a matter of fact. From 1890 to 1950/1960, the median rate falls, bottoming out at 22.8 for men and 20.3 for women. Then the trend reverses and the median age at first marriage starts going up again. By 1980, the median age of first marriage for women is equal to that in 1890, while men reach the 1890 median by 1990. It would be really interesting to see the numbers for the 19th century, but as you can see, the 1950/1960 low was a historical blip, rather than the norm for the US.

Our current numbers (27/29) are pretty high, historically speaking, but times are pretty hard for young people. A ridiculous number of young adults are living with their parents and still struggling economically. Under the circumstances, it’s not surprising that early marriage is not more common.

gallup.com/poll/167426/aged-living-parents.aspx

51% of 18-23-year-olds are living with parents. That’s not totally terrible, as that is college age. However, among 24-34-year-olds (i.e. the very prime of independent young adulthood), 14% are still living with parents, and that is terrible.

 

[holy_face]

This is sort of skewed due to immigration of millions of Latin Americans who tend to have more children at a younger age, it would be more interesting to see this broken down by ethnicity.

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“I talking about a very specific type of woman here, one that deliberately puts off marriage to pursue her independent womanhood and to have fun in your youth. This is indeed a type of birth control”

We regularly get posts in the Family Life forum from single Catholic women who are getting to be 30ish (or even older), have been looking for a husband for the past 10+ years, and are staring spinsterhood in the face, having had no offers at all. And their reward for their years of patience and faithfulness is for guys like you to assume that since they’re over 30, they must have been slutting it up all that time…Great.

I wouldn’t assume that any particular woman was putting off marriage to pursue her “independent womanhood” and to have fun in her youth, if I didn’t know a lot about her personally. Furthermore, if one is single and female, what are the options? One can’t go into a cryogenic state while waiting for Prince Charming to come along–one has to make a living. Plus, seriously pursuing a career is one of the best ways to find a guy who is seriously pursuing a career.

 

[Xantippe]

Holy face,

The average woman doesn’t get that many marriage proposals, even when very young. Very few of us are getting showered with them. In fact, as I’ve mentioned, some of us would even have been thrilled to be taken out for coffee in college.

When I was dating my 35-year-old divorced guy as a 19-year-old college senior, he used to propose to me like clock work. But even then, I knew it wasn’t right–our religious views were incompatible, our age was incompatible, pretty much everything was incompatible. I had plans which did not include getting married at 20 and starting a family. The 35-year-old (who was a non-American) thought that I shouldn’t wait to get married and have a family–in his opinion, 25 (the number I had named to him) was definitely too late. I had a very narrow escape, and then went off to do the stuff I wanted to–I spent a couple years working abroad and then came back to the US to grad school and immediately met my future husband. It’s now simply horrifying to think I might have married the 35-year-old guy instead of my husband.

It was a very dramatic difference. When I was dating the 35-year-old guy, there was always a little voice in my head yelling “Not him! Not him!” And then a few years later, I met my future husband (who was 24 at the time), and it was as if the little voice was saying, “This is him!” Everything had been wrong, and then suddenly everything was right. We’ve been married for nearly 16 years now. I wouldn’t say either of us is perfect, but I think we are perfect for each other.

So, with that past history, I would not be hurrying any woman into anything she wasn’t sure of (or any man, for that matter). Sometimes you just know when it’s not time.

 

[enterthenewage]

But it isn’t. If you are in a relationship with someone who has a history, you have to accept it. You can’t harp on how offensive it is or unrealistically expect your partner to change the past.

If you can’t accept the past, then only date virgins. But don’t use the kind of offensive language and antagonistic tone that you have been using about other people just because they don’t meet your marriage criteria.

I would never date or marry someone who wanted to settle down in a rural area or small town, who was a practicing Hindu, or worked a job that had them away from home for a significant amount of time out of the year. But I don’t speak of these people in hostile terms, or try to position myself as above them.

It depends on a persons morals and value whether or not it’s offensive, but for me and some other people who value virginity, it is. I am already making efforts to steer clear of girls with sexual histories. Believe me, it’s not the first time I told a girl I was turned off by past sexual histories and she confessed to sleeping around before.

You are comparing apples to italian sausages by comparing virginity to the other things you listed. The Catholic Church teaches that people should keep their virginity until marriage. This is a very hard task given the world we live in today and it will be a major disappointment to a lot of people who waited to find out that they SO is not a virgin. I am not saying this stuff for kicks, I am expressing how I honestly feel, and my honest feelings are that extramarital non-virgins are lower quality people. The level of sugar coating and mixing catholicism with hippie values is just crazy these days. Not as bad as the episcopalians, but a lot of non-practicing catholics seem hellbent on getting there. A few months back, I read an excellent article about how a lot of youth nowadays who were raised christian aren’t even fully christian, due to their bizarre views about God that have no theological backing.

 

[Xantippe]

enterthenewage said:

“The Catholic Church teaches that people should keep their virginity until marriage.”

But the Church does not require virginity for valid marriage.

“…extramarital non-virgins are lower quality people.”

Try that phrase on a priest friend. See what he says.

I’m just not seeing a lot of awareness of the multidimensionality of the demands of the married state. Speaking broadly:

A wife has to be faithful.
She has to be willing to accept children.
She has to keep a pleasant, safe and well-organized home and make sure everybody gets to the doctor and the dentist as needed.
She needs to care for children–feed them, clothe them, make sure they bathe and brush their teeth and go to bed at a decent hour.
She has to love her children, listen to them, oversee their education, develop their talents, and set them a good example.
She needs to love her husband, support her husband, stand up to him as necessary, and forgive him as needed.
She needs to contribute to her family’s welfare to the best of her ability, whether in the home or outside.
She needs to be prudent with family resources. She needs to be capable of self-denial. She needs to plan and prioritize and to consult regularly with her husband about how best to meet family needs.
In short, she should be the modern version of Proverbs 31.

Chastity is a minimum, but it’s only a minimum–a well-functioning family has so many moving parts, and that’s only one of them.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I am not saying this stuff for kicks, I am expressing how I honestly feel, and my honest feelings are that extramarital non-virgins are lower quality people.

We can all be honest. Your attitude to others is simply disgusting. You are exalting yourself.

"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[mommamaree]

We can all be honest. Your attitude to others is simply disgusting. You are exalting yourself.

"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Quite right.

 

[holy_face]

holy face said:

“I talking about a very specific type of woman here, one that deliberately puts off marriage to pursue her independent womanhood and to have fun in your youth. This is indeed a type of birth control”

We regularly get posts in the Family Life forum from single Catholic women who are getting to be 30ish (or even older), have been looking for a husband for the past 10+ years, and are staring spinsterhood in the face, having had no offers at all. And their reward for their years of patience and faithfulness is for guys like you to assume that since they’re over 30, they must have been slutting it up all that time…Great.

I wouldn’t assume that any particular woman was putting off marriage to pursue her “independent womanhood” and to have fun in her youth, if I didn’t know a lot about her personally. Furthermore, if one is single and female, what are the options? One can’t go into a cryogenic state while waiting for Prince Charming to come along–one has to make a living. Plus, seriously pursuing a career is one of the best ways to find a guy who is seriously pursuing a career.

If I were to become single for some reason, being 43, I would be pursuing a woman in her 30s. I don’t have a realistic expectation of securing a 20 year old bride. It would not be in her best interest to marry someone 20 years older, and the maturity level would be drastic.

I realize to a certain point that I have also hit the wall, I am less fertile and have an increased risk of passing on genetic defects.

I would have no problem seeking one of theses Catholic women in her 30s, but I would be extremely cautious because I am aware of the potential risks.

If I were 32 years old I would most certainly be looking for women in their 20s as primary candidates for marriage. I am not saying I would rule out women in their 30s but I would much more discerning.

 

[holy_face]

I am being a true discerning Christian who seeks the values as set forth by God. I have every right to protect my own dignity in seeking a bride that meets my expectations of a true Christian wife, one that does not bring with her a huge stain of sin that will most certainly bring more difficulty to the marriage.

I would not be doing myself or my future children any favors by marrying a woman who slept with 50 men. One who would statistically have a much much greater chance of breaking up the family. It is also common sense, most men instinctually know this, it is those that are under the spell of some kind of hippie love that are blind to reality.

It is those that live by this false notion of blind romantic love that are under the spell of Satan. There is nothing about soul mates or us having a one special someone out there for us reserved for us by God. Scripture does not speak of anything like this. We must discern for ourselves based on Christian values who is truly good for us or a woman will destroy us.

So many people’s lives are ruined because of this false notion. What happens when the man finds out his one true love slept with his bother and is now pregnant, his world is utterly destroyed. Or a woman finds out her husband, her soul mate, has been visiting prostitutes after work for 2 decades, she is gutted completely.

If you realize that there is no such thing as a soul mate, that there are many potential people out there that that share your values and are compatible, then you have much more power not to fall under the spell of a person who is no good for you. We have choices and the more choices we have the better. There is no reason not to find someone who meets your expectations.

It is not fair to you or the person you marry if you end up settling because you are desperate and fall in love in an instant. You will realize later the mistake you made and nobody will be happy.

It only makes sense to use some strategy and standards to finding someone to spend the rest of your life with, it is utterly senseless not to.

 

[mommamaree]

No I am being a true discerning Christian who seeks the values as set forth by God. I have every right to protect my own dignity in seeking a bride that meets my expectations of a true Christian wife, one that does not bring with her a huge stain of sin that will most certainly bring more difficulty to the marriage.

I would not be doing myself or my future children any favors by marrying a woman who slept with 50 men. One who would statistically have a much much greater chance of breaking up the family. It is also common sense, most men instinctually know this, it is those that are under the spell of some kind of hippie love that are blind to reality.

It is those that live by this false notion of blind romantic love that are under the spell of Satan. There is nothing about soul mates or us having a one special someone out there for us reserved for us by God. Scripture does not speak of anything like this. We must discern for ourselves based on Christian values who is truly good for us or such a woman will destroy us.

So many people’s lives are ruined because of this false notion. What happens when the man finds out his one true love slept with his bother and is now pregnant, his world is utterly destroyed. Or a woman finds out her husband, her soul mate, has been visiting prostitutes after work for 2 decades, she is gutted completely.

It only makes sense to use some strategy and standards to finding someone to spend the rest of your life with, it is utterly senseless not to.

WarriorMonk’s post was directed toward enterthenewage. So, are you actually enterthenewage, or are you admitting your perspective is identical with his? If neither is true, then why do you defend yourself against an assessment of enterthenewage’s attitude?
Besides, enterthenewage asserts that he DOES rank people in terms of value, while you have previously stated that despite the use of terms such as value, you do NOT rank people. So, which is it?

 

[holy_face]

No I don’t rank people in general and disagree with enterthenewage, For compatibility I have qualities that I favor and look for them in someone I would consider for marriage. But I would not rank a woman who I did not favor for marriage as someone who was beneath me, we are both sinners and equal in God’s eyes. However i agree with his attitude in general about finding someone who has the right values and avoiding falling for people who do not.

I just changed my previous post to reflect my general attitude as opposed to a direct response to WarriorMonk

 

[holy_face]

this is a must read for this conversation

rollingstone.com/feature/millennial-sexual-revolution-relationships-marriage

 

[The_Bucket]

I quite agree that there is no such thing as a soul mate. There is no one that God has reserved for us. Probably not, anyway. I mean, probably St. Joseph to Mary. And God could reserve someone special for each of us, but I don’t think that’s how He works most of the time.

But marriage is indeed a vocation and it does take discerning to figure out whether a) one is called to it and b) who would be the best fit to help you live out that vocation and for you to help the other to live his/her vocation.

My objections to some of the sentiment in this thread is linked to specific diction that I believe does harm to the public view of the Catholic notion of marriage. I also strongly object to the notion that believing reformation of life can and is a real thing caused by God’s grace is a form of “hippie love.”

I’m totally with you holy face on prudence. A sober-minded approach to choosing a mate is something sorely lacking in society today. But I think sometimes your word choice makes it seem like you do not believe that grace is real and that reformation of life is real and that someone who has a checkered past can turn it around and be “worthy” of marriage. Or at least to marriage of someone with “your relative value.” That’s where I’m objecting.

If you merely stressed the importance of prudence and hesitation to jump into a relationship with someone who has an extensive past history of sin, we’d be on entirely the same wavelength. But you went much further than that, and that’s where I object.

 

[mommamaree]

Holy face and The Bucket,
I agree with much of what you both say, but I strongly disagree with you both on the notion of soul mates. I do believe that God brought my husband into my life when He did as part of His plan for my life and that if I hadn’t recognized that and acted accordingly, then I could have lost him (my husband) and my greatest chance for earthly happiness and wholeness. My husband is my best friend and my spouse, and most certainly, my soul mate. I realize this is purely subjective, but it is also true that I know other married couples who feel similarly.
At the very least, after the couple is validly married, they BECOME soul mates until death parts them. It is this very reality that makes the prudence and level-headed approach so important. Discerning one’s soul mate and acting accordingly and merging lives for as long as both shall live is not for the faint of heart or for the flighty or fickle.

 

[The_Bucket]

this is a must read for this conversation

rollingstone.com/feature/millennial-sexual-revolution-relationships-marriage

To wit, the average age one loses his/her virginity is UP and the percentage of sexually active teenagers is DOWN. That’s a good trend in my opinion. The issue is that once one gets to college age… no one knows how or wants to make the effort to, engage in some kind of real dating relationship. It’s either too much work, too awkward or too something. That’s pretty much in line with what Xantippe was saying!

The Boomer generation has failed to teach men how to muster up the courage to treat a woman like a lady and lead and failed to teach women how to respond to awkward entreaties and encourage men to just go for it. I mean, I asked my wife out “for a drink” on her 21st birthday over Facebook. FACEBOOK! And then it wasn’t until we “hung out” a couple times that I finally said “do you want to get dinner next Saturday?” She made it real easy in establishing the program by flat out asking “You mean on a date?” Now I thought I was asking her on a date (dinner means a date, right?!), but it helped that she clarified the situation. Spurred me on to just say “Yeah, on a date!”

We need more of that. Clearly my generation wants to get married. They also feel pressure from a lack of community/societal connection, mountains of student debt, a poor job market and disconnect from any kind of faith-based institutions. I’m not saying that we young people aren’t responsible for some of that, but some of it was also outside of our control.

I like to think that my goal as a young-ish (ugh, adding the ish these days) father is to instill virtues in my children that will allow them, someday, to bypass the stupidity and circuitous nature of whatever passes for dating these days and get them back to something that actually makes sense.

 

[holy_face]

I quite agree that there is no such thing as a soul mate. There is no one that God has reserved for us. Probably not, anyway. I mean, probably St. Joseph to Mary. And God could reserve someone special for each of us, but I don’t think that’s how He works most of the time.

But marriage is indeed a vocation and it does take discerning to figure out whether a) one is called to it and b) who would be the best fit to help you live out that vocation and for you to help the other to live his/her vocation.

My objections to some of the sentiment in this thread is linked to specific diction that I believe does harm to the public view of the Catholic notion of marriage. I also strongly object to the notion that believing reformation of life can and is a real thing caused by God’s grace is a form of “hippie love.”

I’m totally with you holy face on prudence. A sober-minded approach to choosing a mate is something sorely lacking in society today. But I think sometimes your word choice makes it seem like you do not believe that grace is real and that reformation of life is real and that someone who has a checkered past can turn it around and be “worthy” of marriage. Or at least to marriage of someone with “your relative value.” That’s where I’m objecting.

If you merely stressed the importance of prudence and hesitation to jump into a relationship with someone who has an extensive past history of sin, we’d be on entirely the same wavelength. But you went much further than that, and that’s where I object.

Grace is real and many people have reformed aspects of their lives, myself included, and many of us still have problems that still need to be resolved through grace.

However, I am saying that at a certain point, the stain of the sin is too great for me to overlook for someone to consider for marriage. I am not saying they are a bad person or that I am higher ranked than them. I am saying I am unable to get past certain things.

Sleeping with 50 guys is something I am not able to get past in a potential wife, period.

They could be a saint at that point and very much in God’s favor, but they are still not good wife material for me. Such a person can find the love of someone who is able to get past it but not me.

God gives us grace to change but the stain is still there, the effects of the sin are still there, and it still happened.

 

[The_Bucket]

At the very least, after the couple is validly married, they BECOME soul mates until death parts them. It is this very reality that makes the prudence and level-headed approach so important. Discerning one’s soul mate and acting accordingly and merging lives for as long as both shall live is not for the faint of heart or for the flighty or fickle.

Yes, we’ll disagree on soul mates before the rite, but not after. I am absolutely bonded to my wife in body and spirit until one of our deaths.

Do I think I could have married someone else? Maybe. I certainly never met another woman I ever considered marrying though, nor do I wish I would have had the opportunity to meet someone else. It’s more I could see it hypothetically.

I do think it’s more likely, however, that I never would have married had it not worked out with my wife… but that’s because of my fairly significant flaws and her significant patience!

 

[holy_face]

Many people have been utterly destroyed over this notion of soul mates because when they find out it is not true it is usually under the worst circumstances. And what happens then, their soul mate is gone, how can you move on from that?

I believed in this when i was young. I actually prayed to God that I would meet someone special and I did a few days later. Imagine the expectations, the excitement, but no this person was definitely not an answer from God, it was like being thrown into a viper den.

I ended up losing my faith for 15 years!

Satan loves opportunities like this to destroy us. Later I realized that there was never such a promise made by God, that we have a soul mate reserved for us. Satan does though, he most definitely has someone special for each one of us!