How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[mommamaree]

Many people have been utterly destroyed over this notion of soul mates because when they find out it is not true it is usually under the worst circumstances. And what happens then, their soul mate is gone, how can you move on from that?

I believed in this when i was young. I actually prayed to God that I would meet someone special and I did a few days later. Imagine the expectations, the excitement, but no this person was definitely not an answer from God, it was like being thrown into a viper den.

I ended up losing my faith for 15 years!

Satan loves opportunities like this to destroy us. Later I realized that there was never such a promise made by God, that we have a soul mate reserved for us. Satan does though, he most definitely has someone special for each one of us!

No person’s bad experience will be able convince me otherwise, and for you to frame it as if it is a diabolical concept is ridiculous.
My husband and I met at 13, and I knew the moment I first laid eyes on him that he was the one I would eventually marry. It freaked me out terribly, and for a long time I resisted. I could say we were high school sweethearts, but it would be closer to the truth if I said I avoided getting too serious until all of a sudden in our freshman year of college, when we were no longer dating, he confessed his love to me. After two difficult weeks of soul searching, I realized that I had long since felt the same. We immediately began speaking of marriage, and became engaged soon after our 18th birthdays (we married one year later). He is my love, my friend, my soul mate. If I were to lose him (and I know someday I will) it would be like losing an arm, a leg, a lung, and being expected to continue living. Thank God for the children He has blessed us with, and for my faith! I will need those to sustain me should I outlive my soul mate. Neither of us are perfect, but we are far better together than we could ever be apart, and it is nearly unimaginable for me the idea of ever being with anyone who was not my husband, precisely because it would not be him. My husband is the one who taught me what God’s love must be like, because he is so kind and accepting and encouraging. I believe that God brought specifically my husband into my life while we were both yet children, just so I would not accidentally or willfully be able to overlook him. And I believe the eerie foreknowledge that I had, the truth I tried to run away from at times because of its enormity, was straight from God, too. Nothing diabolical at all. People who have experienced decades of marriage to their soul mates would not take kindly any assertions that such a notion is diabolical.

 

[The_Bucket]

Satan likely knows us pretty well and has pretty good guesses about our desires. So it’s not surprising to me that if the Enemy twists someone praying to find a spouse into thinking that he or she had found “the one” when it would have been a terrible match.

But again, one experience does not a rule make. I do not believe in the notion of soul mates prior to marriage simply because the melding of spirits does not happen before marriage. I also do not ascribe to the notion that God always has “the one” waiting for us. After all, He is the real “One” waiting for us! Spouses are meant to point us in the direction of our truest soul mate.

So it’s a tough call for me. I certainly think that the Lord hears our prayers, including prayers to find a spouse. My opinion about His response is: Sometimes He says yes. Sometimes He says no. Sometimes He says wait. And sometimes He says nothing and we figure it out for ourselves because He knows there is more than one person out there who we could bring to Heaven and who could bring us to Heaven through a marital relationship. That’s just my opinion though, not theology and surely not doctrine.

 

[holy_face]

mommamaree, I am not suggesting that that your experience is diabolical, it seems quite the opposite, but just that the notion of soul mate has the potential to be.

Things worked our great for you not because he was your soul mate but because you both were very compatible so it worked. You knew he was for you when you saw him but millions of people have thought the same thing about someone and it did not turn out so well for them.

It’s a dangerous concept in general. People should seek others based on their beliefs and compatibility, not on any notion that the person is the only one for them. It seems anti-Christian to me as well, almost a type worship.

 

[mommamaree]

Satan likely knows us pretty well and has pretty good guesses about our desires. So it’s not surprising to me that if the Enemy twists someone praying to find a spouse into thinking that he or she had found “the one” when it would have been a terrible match.

But again, one experience does not a rule make. I do not believe in the notion of soul mates prior to marriage simply because the melding of spirits does not happen before marriage. I also do not ascribe to the notion that God always has “the one” waiting for us. After all, He is the real “One” waiting for us! Spouses are meant to point us in the direction of our truest soul mate.

So it’s a tough call for me. I certainly think that the Lord hears our prayers, including prayers to find a spouse. My opinion about His response is: Sometimes He says yes. Sometimes He says no. Sometimes He says wait. And sometimes He says nothing and we figure it out for ourselves because He knows there is more than one person out there who we could bring to Heaven and who could bring us to Heaven through a marital relationship. That’s just my opinion though, not theology and surely not doctrine.

I do not believe my husband was my soul mate before we married. I believe God INTENDED him to be my soul mate, and he BECAME my soul mate officially upon marriage. My understanding of soul mate is that such a person is one whom God intends for us to marry. Now, we can reject God’s plan and select someone else, or no one at all, or we could ruin our chance at a happy marriage to our intended spouse by selfishness, but we will be heading down the road to grief.
I am not a romantic, nor an idealist. I am fairly pragmatic and practical about relationships and marriage. But when someone find a person that they know is compatible and is so special and they look at the circumstances that brought them together and they can see God’s hand in that, why would such a person reject the idea that that person is meant to be their soul’s mate?

 

[holy_face]

Ok but those beliefs are not biblical and have the potential to ruin people when their “soul mate” destroys them. God never gave us instruction about sending us soul mates, I don’t doubt that God had a large hand in your marriage but I doubt he preselected someone for you. If you want to believe that then I won’t try and take that from you, but people in general should be carefully of this kind of thinking.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I would not be doing myself or my future children any favors by marrying a woman who slept with 50 men.

FWIW, that is a rarity; an extreme situation. Most of the people I’ve come across or have heard about (friends of friends) that do that fall into two categories: immaturity (party people on a college campus), have psychological issues, or have addictions.

Most people here are talking about one or a few prior partners, which is more reality based. It only takes one person one time to not become a virgin.

 

[mommamaree]

mommamaree, I am not suggesting that that your experience is diabolical, it seems quite the opposite, but just that the notion of soul mate has the potential to be.

Things worked our great for you not because he was your soul mate but because you both were very compatible so it worked. You knew he was for you when you saw him but millions of people have thought the same thing about someone and it did not turn out so well for them.

It’s a dangerous concept in general. People should seek others based on their beliefs and compatibility, not on any notion that the person is the only one for them. It seems anti-Christian to me as well, almost a type worship.

But he is my soul mate precisely because he was so compatible. He compliments me perfectly. And I know I do the same for him. Perhaps other people have a more romantic, idealistic, ethereal notion of what a soul mate is?
To your other point, yes, I believe that had I missed out on marrying my husband, I would have destroyed myself in bad relationships and broken marriages. I truly believe that there was not one other man on this planet who could have been the kind of boyfriend and later, husband, to me as my husband has been. That is not worship of a human being. That is me trembling at the thought of what would have happened if I have looked God’s gift to me in the face and rejected him. That is me living my life in utter gratitude for what God has blessed me with. My husband is my soul mate, but God crafted his soul and brought us together while we were yet innocent children.
I say all these things in spite of the fact that my husband has, at times, hurt me deeply. He is not perfect, nor am I, but because we both believe that God intends us to be married, we are able to work through the hurts and challenges.
Anyway, this is getting father off-topic. Back to the initial topic, virginity was very important to both of us, and even now, after approaching two decades of marriage, that is something we still treasure and benefit from.
I only hope is that I can help my children to understand how important it is, and my prayer (heart’s wish) is that they will be able to find Catholic virgins, if they are meant to marry. I pray now for the purity of the future spouses of my children.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Ok but those beliefs are not biblical and have the potential to ruin people when their “soul mate” destroys them. God never gave us instruction about sending us soul mates, I don’t doubt that God had a large hand in your marriage but I doubt he preselected someone for you. If you want to believe that then I won’t try and take that from you, but people in general should be carefully of this kind of thinking.

It takes much less than a “soul mate” to “ruin” people. All it takes is one’s spouse to leave an innocent Catholic spouse. That is a very common situation, and destroys many Catholic’s concept of a Catholic marriage.

 

[holy_face]

Both myself and my wife were not virgins when we married so I do understand and have the capacity to let some things slide, her experiences were all from long term relationships and they were just a few different people. 5+ previous partners is where I start to raise my eyebrows and start getting the really icky feelings, 50 to me as I said before is in the same category as a prostitute.

A virgin is still much better because no matter what, the fact that my wife had previous sexual experiences still makes me a little less attracted to her than I would otherwise be.

 

[holy_face]

It takes much less than a “soul mate” to “ruin” people. All it takes is one’s spouse to leave an innocent Catholic spouse. That is a very common situation, and destroys many Catholic’s concept of a Catholic marriage.

Yes but the concept of soul mate gets people to make very bad decisions, not realizing that they may have other options out there. It also gives that “soul mate” an incredible amount of power of them. Sets the stage for much destruction.

I have to admit that I don’t completely agree with the Catholic teachings on divorce/re-marriage. I firmly believe adultery is grounds for a divorce and there is no reason the victim should be forced to live as a monk for the rest of their life if they leave the relationship in that situation. The Orthodox don’t have such a strict interpretation and they shared the same doctrine as the Catholic Church for centuries. I am not sure when the teachings on divorce diverged.

I believe that both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are in a state of schism, not just the Orthodox.Their separation makes them both schismatic as both were culpable in the split. I am Catholic but I am not one that will just blindly accept whatever the Church says when things are bit murky or where things may have not been established with infallibility.

 

[mommamaree]

Ok but those beliefs are not biblical and have the potential to ruin people when their “soul mate” destroys them. God never gave us instruction about sending us soul mates, I don’t doubt that God had a large hand in your marriage but I doubt he preselected someone for you. If you want to believe that then I won’t try and take that from you, but people in general should be carefully of this kind of thinking.

My perspective is not anti-biblical, though. Just because something is not found in the Bible, does not mean that it is wrong. And perhaps it is also true that my understanding of soul mate is different from yours. I simply mean God’s intended spouse.

 

[The_Bucket]

holy face:

I have to admit that I don’t completely agree with the Catholic teachings on divorce/re-marriage. I firmly believe adultery is grounds for a divorce and there is no reason the victim should be forced to live as a monk for the rest of their life if they leave the relationship in that situation. The Orthodox don’t have such a strict interpretation and they shared the same doctrine as the Catholic Church for centuries. I am not sure when the teachings on divorce diverged.

The Orthodox teaching on okonomia is interesting, but ultimately falls short of Christ’s command. He made it pretty clear in the Gospels: Unless the marriage is unlawful, divorce is not possible. I don’t mean not permissible. I mean literally, not possible.

I think where the Church could learn from it is dealing with the annulment process, but that’s not the same as Orthodox divorce. To be honest, the practice is pretty weird. I like the concept of okonomia, but only in theory. In practice, especially as it pertains to divorce/remarriage, it’s weird. And I say that because while Orthodox accept divorce, they see it as a “one-time only” thing and treat the remarriage in a very subdued manner. It’s basically not something to really celebrate. That’s just odd.

I am Catholic but I am not one that will just blindly accept whatever the Church says when things are bit murky or where things have not been established with infallibility.

The teaching on divorce is part of doctrine and is indeed, infallible.

 

[holy_face]

The Orthodox teaching on okonomia is interesting, but ultimately falls short of Christ’s command. He made it pretty clear in the Gospels: Unless the marriage is unlawful, divorce is not possible. I don’t mean not permissible. I mean literally, not possible.

I think where the Church could learn from it is dealing with the annulment process, but that’s not the same as Orthodox divorce. To be honest, the practice is pretty weird. I like the concept of okonomia, but only in theory. In practice, especially as it pertains to divorce/remarriage, it’s weird. And I say that because while Orthodox accept divorce, they see it as a “one-time only” thing and treat the remarriage in a very subdued manner. It’s basically not something to really celebrate. That’s just odd.

The teaching on divorce is part of doctrine and is indeed, infallible.

The word adultery is used as an exception, Catholics then have to come to explain that it was a different word for adultery that didn’t have quite have the same meaning. It seems kind on murky to me.

When was this established as infallible, there are pretty strict conditions required for infallibility?

 

[holy_face]

I know that scripture has already been infallible, but with that particular interpretation, have they always believed and taught that or did it change at some point? If it changed was that particular interpretation deemed infallible?

The Othodox interpretation makes me wonder when the views diverged and why.

 

[GEddie]

In real life, ordinary secular men aren’t interested in maximizing fertility.

Maybe not in their conscious minds. But the conscious mind really has less to do with sexuality than we all like to think it does.

Just like the young lady who probably does not deliberately scan a crowd for alpha male physiques, a man may not be thinking about maximally fertile females; but even if he has consciously forgotten, his body remembers that the whole point of sexuality is generational succession; and adjusts its “attraction software” to ladies who look more potentially fertile.

IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA

 

[holy_face]

yes, men are not pigs for being attracted to younger women, it is a biological imperative, youth is a sign of fertility and beauty is a sign of healthy genetics.

 

[The_Bucket]

I know that scripture has already been infallible, but with that particular interpretation, have they always believed and taught that or did it change at some point? If it changed was that particular interpretation deemed infallible?

The Othodox interpretation makes me wonder when the views diverged and why.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_Eastern_Orthodox_Church

I was wrong about the limit to one divorce/remarriage. It’s actually two.

And this notes, the very nature of marriage is different in the East than it is in the West. Basically it tolerates divorce but does not acknowledge that death separates spouses and does not perfectly hew with the idea that there is no marriage in Heaven.

As for our Faith’s teaching on the sacrament, it’s well documented and here: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

1614 In his preaching Jesus unequivocally taught the original meaning of the union of man and woman as the Creator willed it from the beginning permission given by Moses to divorce one’s wife was a concession to the hardness of hearts. The matrimonial union of man and woman is indissoluble: God himself has determined it "what therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder."

1615 This unequivocal insistence on the indissolubility of the marriage bond may have left some perplexed and could seem to be a demand impossible to realize. However, Jesus has not placed on spouses a burden impossible to bear, or too heavy - heavier than the Law of Moses. By coming to restore the original order of creation disturbed by sin, he himself gives the strength and grace to live marriage in the new dimension of the Reign of God. It is by following Christ, renouncing themselves, and taking up their crosses that spouses will be able to “receive” the original meaning of marriage and live it with the help of Christ. This grace of Christian marriage is a fruit of Christ’s cross, the source of all Christian life.

And finally… yes the KJV of the Bible, and other Protestant versions for that matter, use “adultery” or “sexual immorality” in their translations. Catholic editions have always used the translation of “unless the marriage is unlawful” because the term used better translates to refer to incest or other forms illicit sexual union that would render the marriage unlawful due to consanguinity.

 

[holy_face]

Yes but the Orthodox shared the same doctrine as the Catholic Church when they were together for centuries, was the teaching different originally?

 

[holy_face]

I think it is quite murky actually, the fact that there is serious discussion about allowing remarried people receive communion illustrates that.

 

[holy_face]

Let us recall first of all that Matthew’s audience was mainly Jews, and only Matthew’s Gospel has this exception clause.

The word “adultery” is not what Jesus said, although many Bible translations use this word. If Jesus intended to say adultery, he would have used the word moicheia, meaning “adultery,” but instead he used the word porneia, meaning illicit or invalid.

His audience, the Jews, knew exactly what Jesus meant. Leviticus 18:6-16 list marriages that are illegal for Jews because they are between certain degrees of consanguinity or were with a Gentile, which was forbidden. The Jews knew this, and this is why Matthew’s Gospel includes this exception. The Catholic Church does follow what Jesus says, when his words are properly translate

This is the catholic answers response above which has been shown to be very murky based on the word porneia, I looked it up in the Greek dictionary

teknia.com/greek-dictionary/porneia

porneia
sexual immorality, fornication, marital unfaithfulness, prostitution, adultery, a generic term for sexual sin of any kind

So it seems not only adultery but all of these other things would be grounds for divorce as well, according the scripture.