How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[holy_face]

Avarice and nepotism are better than child rapists and tons of closet homosexuals, both churches have their fair share of dark secrets. Celibacy has created its own set of problems that I see as quite worse.

One of my long time friends is a catholic priest and he has mentioned more than once how bad the homosexual problem is, he says they are many that actually enter the priesthood to hook up with men.

If you create an all boys club that do not have relationships with women you inadvertently light beacon of attraction for the wrong type of element for the priesthood.

 

[Havard]

Avarice and nepotism are better than child rapists and tons of closet homosexuals, both churches have their fair share of dark secrets. Celibacy has created its own set of problems that I see as quite worse.

Sexual abuse among celibate priests isn’t higher than Protestant ministers. Or secular teachers, for that matter.

 

[mommamaree]

Avarice and nepotism are better than child rapists and tons of closet homosexuals, both churches have their fair share of dark secrets. Celibacy has created its own set of problems that I see as quite worse.

So would you rather have the depraved individuals who prey upon children be encouraged to turn that depravity upon wives?? Men who lust after children already have a disordered sexual appetite. Marriage will not help these souls; it will instead hide their appetites behind a marriage certificate, and the men will continue to lust after children and/or abuse their own wife and children. The only thing that will help such individuals is serious counseling, removal from positions of power over vulnerable individuals, and a heavy emphasis on chastity. Being unable to have sex with a woman does NOT make a man into a pedophile. These kind of assumptions about what will fix pedophilia (or more accurately, pederasty and ephebiphilia) make me kinda sick to my stomach. The idea of telling a depraved individual “get thee a wife”, as if acting out his lustful inclinations on an innocent, unsuspecting wife is acceptable, is truly horrifying. Allowing married men to become priests will never provide a cure for this kind of sexual disorder. Women are not meant to be merely outlets for men’s lusts. And pedophiles and pederasts are notoriously irreformable. These must be acknowledged. Suggesting ending priestly celibacy to end pederasty is like putting a bandaid on a gun shot wound.

 

[holy_face]

Sexual abuse among celibate priests isn’t higher than Protestant ministers. Or secular teachers, for that matter.

Maybe not but it is of a particular homosexual nature. and its not just sex abuse there is a larger culture of homosexuality in general within the priesthood, its there, it’s not most priests but it is a significant presence.

 

[holy_face]

So would you rather have the depraved individuals who prey upon children be encouraged to turn that depravity upon wives?? Men who lust after children already have a disordered sexual appetite. Marriage will not help these souls; it will instead hide their appetites behind a marriage certificate, and the men will continue to lust after children and/or abuse their own wife and children. The only thing that will help such individuals is serious counseling, removal from positions of power over vulnerable individuals, and a heavy emphasis on chastity. Being unable to have sex with a woman does NOT make a man into a pedophile. These kind of assumptions about what will fix pedophilia (or more accurately, pederasty and ephebiphilia) make me kinda sick to my stomach. The idea of telling a depraved individual “get thee a wife”, as if acting out his lustful inclinations on an innocent, unsuspecting wife is acceptable, is truly horrifying. Allowing married men to become priests will never provide a cure for this kind of sexual disorder. Women are not meant to be merely outlets for men’s lusts. And pedophiles and pederasts are notoriously irreformable. These must be acknowledged. Suggesting ending priestly celibacy to end pederasty is like putting a bandaid on a gun shot wound.

It has attracted a particular culture of homosexuality is my argument. A bunch of men that do not have relationships with woman is a giant beacon for that type of person. They can stay in the closet and please their family by becoming a dignified priest while pursuing the gay lifestyle in secret.
**
They never have to explain why they never desired marriage, it is the perfect cover.**

You can deal with the avarice and nepotism through strict policy, you can’t do anything about the gay culture without making everyone take a lie detector test.

 

[mommamaree]

It has attracted a particular culture of homosexuality is my argument, a bunch of men that do not have relationships with woman is a giant beacon for type of person. They can stay in the closet and please their family by becoming a dignified priest while pursuing the gay lifestyle in secret. They never have to explain why they never desired marriage, it is the perfect cover.

In the past few decades, many straight men have been rejected from entering the seminary because they refused to give sexual favors to the older priests. It is not that God is not calling straight men, but rather that the gay men have been recrafting the priesthood in their own image, to maximize their sexual opportunities. It is not celibacy that is the problem, but rather the recent onslaught against the Church by active homosexuals.

 

[holy_face]

In the past few decades, many straight men have been rejected from entering the seminary because they refused to give sexual favors to the older priests. It is not that God is not calling straight men, but rather that the gay men have been recrafting the priesthood in their own image, to maximize their sexual opportunities. It is not celibacy that is the problem, but rather the recent onslaught against the Church by active homosexuals.

Yes but celibacy is what gives them the cover, they can tell their families they are going into the priesthood and their families will respect them. They never have to explain why they never married, and as a bonus there is already a gay hookup culture there fro them to participate in.

I think its too late to do anything now though, changing the celibacy requirements would not change a culture that is already embedded, the damage is done.

Perhaps it could in a few hundred years but things have to start changing now.

 

[holy_face]

It could be that I more belong in the Orthodox Church, I contemplated it before but decided against it. I am unsure now, I am very uneasy about the Catholic Church and have many trust issues for good reason in my view.

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“I have always understood adultery to be grounds for a divorce, I would never agree to something that stated otherwise.”

The duty of fidelity to a spouse is not terminated by that spouse’s infidelity.

At least in the current social climate in the US, a father of a family who is a pedophile has much better access to children than a celibate priest does. Think about it. If you were a pedophile, wouldn’t it be much easier to get what you want via carpooling and coaching and playdates and sleepovers and stepping up to help families in need? Not to mention having children of one’s own. These days, I can’t think of a worse career for an aspiring pedophile than being a Catholic priest–so much easier to become a child psychologist, music teacher, school teacher, social worker, coach, agent, show biz type who works with child actors, or any number of similar professions.

Here’s an example of a BBC guy who worked and volunteered with a lot of children over a long career.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile_sexual_abuse_scandal

Also, in the current social climate, is the Roman Catholic priesthood really such a cozy haven for homosexuality in a cold, homophobic world? The polling on gay marriage has been trending up for the last 20 years, with about 50% favoring it today.

fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/26/how-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage-is-changing-and-what-it-means/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Yes but celibacy is what gives them the cover, they can tell their families they are going into the priesthood and their families will respect them. They never have to explain why they never married, and as a bonus there is already a gay hookup culture there fro them to participate in.

I think its too late to do anything now though, changing the celibacy requirements would not change a culture that is already embedded, the damage is done.

Perhaps it could in a few hundred years but things have to start changing now.

From everything that I have read, the seminaries have really reformed in the past decade or so. They have new leadership, and they do intense psychological screening in order to make sure that the seminarians are spiritually, mentally and emotionally healthy, and that they are not entering the priesthood for the reasons that you mentioned.

 

[holy_face]

holy face said:

The duty of fidelity to a spouse is not terminated by that spouse’s infidelity.

I don’t agree. I would not have agreed to a Catholic marriage it if I had known that was the Church’s stance on it. I have always considered infidelity to be a deal breaker.

At least in the current social climate in the US, a father of a family who is a pedophile has much better access to children than a celibate priest does. Think about it. If you were a pedophile, wouldn’t it be much easier to get what you want via carpooling and coaching and playdates and sleepovers and stepping up to help families in need? Not to mention having children of one’s own. These days, I can’t think of a worse career for an aspiring pedophile than being a Catholic priest–so much easier to become a child psychologist, music teacher, school teacher, social worker, coach, agent, show biz type who works with child actors, or any number of similar professions.

These days with all of negative publicity yes, I think the problem of it will fade in the Church, the problem is already there though and will take time to heal and resolve.

 

[holy_face]

From everything that I have read, the seminaries have really reformed in the past decade or so. They have new leadership, and they do intense psychological screening in order to make sure that the seminarians are spiritually, mentally and emotionally healthy, and that they are not entering the priesthood for the reasons that you mentioned.

probably depends on the seminary and who is running it, my friend said it was rampant and he is relatively young

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“I don’t agree. I would not have agreed to a Catholic marriage it if I had known that was the Church’s stance on it. I have always considered infidelity to be a deal breaker.”

Deep down, I’m pretty sure you knew that, if you knew anything about the Church. Everybody, even Protestants, knows that the Catholic Church is sticky about divorce and remarriage.

If infidelity was all that was necessary to dissolve a Catholic marriage, all we’d have to do to get out of a bad marriage would be to commit adultery. You knew that that wasn’t an option, right?

 

[holy_face]

No I really never realized that regarding a spouse being unfaithful, it is something I discovered relatively recently. Even during RCIA I was never under that impression. To be honest I probably would not have had a Catholic marriage and would have never gone through RCIA to return to the Church if I had known that. I was baptized Catholic but I was not raised Catholic by my parents.

The fact that the Church would insist on that teaching makes me question my Catholicism all together, especially since the Orthodox are not quite so draconian regarding this issue

I don’t see any truth in the teaching, usually I see the truth in a teaching which makes me affirm my faith.

Of course I agree that me being unfaithful would not be grounds for me seeking the divorce.

I probably won’t convert or anything, I think I am relatively safe that I would receive an annulment if my wife was unfaithful, the fact that it is a non-sacramental marriage and that I did not understand exactly what I was getting into regarding divorce policies.

 

[thewanderer]

No I really never realized that regarding a spouse being unfaithful, it is something I discovered relatively recently. Even during RCIA I was never under that impression. To be honest I probably would not have had a Catholic marriage and would have never gone through RCIA to return to the Church if I had known that. I was baptized Catholic but I was not raised Catholic by my parents.

The fact that the Church would insist on that teaching makes me question my Catholicism all together, especially since the Orthodox are not quite so draconian regarding this issue

I don’t see any truth in the teaching, usually I see the truth in a teaching which makes me affirm my faith.

Of course I agree that me being unfaithful would not be grounds for me seeking the divorce.

I probably won’t convert or anything, I think I am relatively safe that I would receive an annulment if my wife was unfaithful, the fact that it is a non-sacramental marriage and that I did not understand exactly what I was getting into regarding divorce policies.

I just want to point out that the fact it is non-sacramental does not make the annulment process easier or more likely to succeed.

 

[holy_face]

Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that I did not have a clear understanding of the rules involved is pretty clear as day, how could it be valid if I did not understand all of the conditions? i would at least go through the process and see where I was at the end, and make a decision from there.

If I were to consider another marriage in the future after that I would be in a real dilemma, could i bring myself to accept these conditions? Not likely, I would have to consider conversion at that point of time.

But anyway, this is all speculative, I hope that I stay married and am never faced with this whole mess.

 

[thewanderer]

Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that I did not have a clear understanding of the rules involved is pretty clear as day, how could it be valid if I did not understand all of the conditions? i would at least go through through the process and see where I was at the end, and make a decision from there.

If I were to consider another marriage in the future after that I would be in a real dilemma, could i bring myself to accept these conditions? Not likely, I would have to consider conversion at that point of time.

Sorry if you misunderstood me, I was not speaking about your belief that marriage is dissoluble due to adultery. I was rather only trying to clarify your misconception about non-sacramental marriages.

 

[holy_face]

I know, I don’t know enough about the process but I was under the belief that non-sacramental marriages were easier to invalidate.

I just hope this is just all speculation and I am never faced with all of this.

 

[thewanderer]

I know, I don’t know enough about the process but I was under the belief that non-sacramental marriages were easier to invalidate.

I just hope this is just all speculation and I am never faced with all of this.

Whether the marriage is sacramental or not does not factor into the annulment decision at all, the only thing that matters is whether or not the marriage was validly entered into. Sacramental and non-sacramental marriages are both just as valid.

 

[Sarcelle]

So would you rather have the depraved individuals who prey upon children be encouraged to turn that depravity upon wives?? Men who lust after children already have a disordered sexual appetite. Marriage will not help these souls; it will instead hide their appetites behind a marriage certificate, and the men will continue to lust after children and/or abuse their own wife and children. The only thing that will help such individuals is serious counseling, removal from positions of power over vulnerable individuals, and a heavy emphasis on chastity. Being unable to have sex with a woman does NOT make a man into a pedophile. These kind of assumptions about what will fix pedophilia (or more accurately, pederasty and ephebiphilia) make me kinda sick to my stomach. The idea of telling a depraved individual “get thee a wife”, as if acting out his lustful inclinations on an innocent, unsuspecting wife is acceptable, is truly horrifying. Allowing married men to become priests will never provide a cure for this kind of sexual disorder. Women are not meant to be merely outlets for men’s lusts. And pedophiles and pederasts are notoriously irreformable. These must be acknowledged. Suggesting ending priestly celibacy to end pederasty is like putting a bandaid on a gun shot wound.

These depraved men could easily turn the focus of their depravity not just on wives but on their children.

Again celibacy does not cause pedophilia.