How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[Padrej]

I just thought of a great point you bring up though. These men, apparently in the midst of battle have died in the act of carrying idols in their pockets. This may be off the subject but, what now? How do they confess? Isn’t this a mortal sin? Will they go to Purgatory because they didn’t have a chance to confess?

They will obviously go to Purgatory with Temporal Punishment attached to their souls, but will they gain some kind of pardon in Purgatory? Is that possible?

To compare Protestant thought on this: we would believe that this would be God’s divine judgement on the fallen as was elluded to in the passage, else why would those who survived without idols lived. Second, This would justify our praying for God’s mercy on our dead for their forgiveness, thus we would take on the role of intersessor for them. Much like you would pray for a soul in Purgatory we would just simply pray that God would have mercy and accept him/her into His loving arms. Just about every Protestant funeral liturgy has some form of this line, “may the souls of the faithful departed find rest” although say in a modern Presbyterian service or Methodist service would you not find the words in that exact order but a thought similar. This is how we would get around the “dying without confessing” thing. We feel that Christ’s blood would have atoned for all so that point would be moot to us. This point however would be different on the more liturgical Anglicans, as their views would be VERY similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter. This is where “last rights” comes in to play for the Anglicans (It used to be called Holy Vaticum or extreme unction). The priest would be the one pronouncing through the “binding and loosing” powers of the church that the soul was forgiven because of and through the shed blood of Christ. This is another area where we have a differing view of “binding and loosing.”

I am posting this not to try and say anyone is right or wrong because I feel we must each work our own salvation out. I am posting this in hopes that it will maybe make the stance many Protestants take on this issue clearer so that we don’t keep throwing barbs at one another but treat each other with the Love that Christ calls us to do.

 

[FrJohnB]

To compare Protestant thought on this: we would believe that this would be God’s divine judgement on the fallen as was elluded to in the passage, else why would those who survived without idols lived. Second, This would justify our praying for God’s mercy on our dead for their forgiveness, thus we would take on the role of intersessor for them. Much like you would pray for a soul in Purgatory we would just simply pray that God would have mercy and accept him/her into His loving arms. Just about every Protestant funeral liturgy has some form of this line, “may the souls of the faithful departed find rest” although say in a modern Presbyterian service or Methodist service would you not find the words in that exact order but a thought similar. This is how we would get around the “dying without confessing” thing. We feel that Christ’s blood would have atoned for all so that point would be moot to us. This point however would be different on the more liturgical Anglicans, as their views would be VERY similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter. This is where “last rights” comes in to play for the Anglicans (It used to be called Holy Vaticum or extreme unction). The priest would be the one pronouncing through the “binding and loosing” powers of the church that the soul was forgiven because of and through the shed blood of Christ. This is another area where we have a differing view of “binding and loosing.”

I am posting this not to try and say anyone is right or wrong because I feel we must each work our own salvation out. I am posting this in hopes that it will maybe make the stance many Protestants take on this issue clearer so that we don’t keep throwing barbs at one another but treat each other with the Love that Christ calls us to do.

Sometimes I think that we Catholics are fed so much mis-information on Protestants that it helps to see what Protestant teachings are rather than fighting over doctrines and who is right. Granted I would like to see all be Catholic, including you Padrej, but I have to respect your position and your beliefs as I can see from this post that you are trying to respect ours.
Sometimes we all tend to go overboard on the doctrine and loose focus on Christ and the Blessed Mother that we should be focusing on. I guess maybe some Protestants may not be as focused on Mary.

 

[Javl]

happilycatholic:

Just one quick question. Are you a theologian, or have you been trained in theology?
Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

It is almost a shame that people cannot come back and tell us what lies beyond and settle these disputes between us once and for all. If they could I wonder how many of us would act the way we do. For 8 years of my 20 in ministry I served a parish that had a reputation for chewing up and spitting out ministers because its people were just that nasty to everybody. The Bible tells us that we are accountable for even every “idle word” so if someone could be allowed to come back from the grave from Hell, Purgatory or wherever as a warning that their soul was in danger wouldn’t the church be a different place?
Granted I know that we have the story of the rich man and Lazarus that begged the same question and the response was “The have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them.” I have often been reminded that in Jeremiah chapter one that the people will rebel and persecute against God’s prophets that He sends to them (this was pointed out by both Catholic and Protestant clergy) but yet God tells us to continue to admonish and preach what is put in our ears because if we become afraid of them, He will make us afraid in front of them. Sometimes it is hard for a pastor or priest to tell a person something but if they hold back Jeremiah one tells us that their condemnation is greater.
Maybe we all need a time of soul searching to reflect on this so that we don’t spend extra time in Purgatory, or grieve our Father’s heart with what words we say.

 

[Padrej]

Sometimes I think that we Catholics are fed so much mis-information on Protestants that it helps to see what Protestant teachings are rather than fighting over doctrines and who is right. Granted I would like to see all be Catholic, including you Padrej, but I have to respect your position and your beliefs as I can see from this post that you are trying to respect ours.
Sometimes we all tend to go overboard on the doctrine and loose focus on Christ and the Blessed Mother that we should be focusing on. I guess maybe some Protestants may not be as focused on Mary.

Thank you for the vote of confidence Fr. John.

 

[happilycatholic]

happilycatholic:

Just one quick question. Are you a theologian, or have you been trained in theology?
Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl, are you picking on me again? I’m a still a little ‘sore’ from the burns I received earlier and don’t really have the energy to fight anymore. So if this is your intention, I submit to all you’ve said. I give up. Uncle.

 

[happilycatholic]

To compare Protestant thought on this: we would believe that this would be God’s divine judgement on the fallen as was elluded to in the passage, else why would those who survived without idols lived. Second, This would justify our praying for God’s mercy on our dead for their forgiveness, thus we would take on the role of intersessor for them. Much like you would pray for a soul in Purgatory we would just simply pray that God would have mercy and accept him/her into His loving arms. Just about every Protestant funeral liturgy has some form of this line, “may the souls of the faithful departed find rest” although say in a modern Presbyterian service or Methodist service would you not find the words in that exact order but a thought similar. This is how we would get around the “dying without confessing” thing. We feel that Christ’s blood would have atoned for all so that point would be moot to us. This point however would be different on the more liturgical Anglicans, as their views would be VERY similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter. This is where “last rights” comes in to play for the Anglicans (It used to be called Holy Vaticum or extreme unction). The priest would be the one pronouncing through the “binding and loosing” powers of the church that the soul was forgiven because of and through the shed blood of Christ. This is another area where we have a differing view of “binding and loosing.”

I am posting this not to try and say anyone is right or wrong because I feel we must each work our own salvation out. I am posting this in hopes that it will maybe make the stance many Protestants take on this issue clearer so that we don’t keep throwing barbs at one another but treat each other with the Love that Christ calls us to do.

Hi Padre,

My post on the explaination from CA got posted at a strange point in the thread, which made it look as if I was posting it to concur with my question about Maccabees. Actually, it was a further response to your original post about Maccabees. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Anyhoo, I really like your response. I’ve always wondered how God’s Mercy is applied to us when we actually die committing a mortal sin. It’s a very strange circumstance. I asked the question in good faith and honesty. Actually, no one has been able to answer the question in the way you did. Most (even priests) I’ve talked to just say we rely on God’s mercy and I know that’s true, but you explained it in a way that actually is shown from Scripture. I’d not read 2 Maccabees in that way before and that’s why the question glared at me and you brought it right out!

I am touched by this and grateful for your explaination.



Thank you. Blessings,

~Tonya

 

[Javl]

Javl, are you picking on me again? I’m a still a little ‘sore’ from the burns I received earlier and don’t really have the energy to fight anymore. So if this is your intention, I submit to all you’ve said. I give up. Uncle.

No, dear sister. I have not ridiculed or derided you in any way. If this is what you think,
then please accept my sincere apologies if I came on too strong. I beg forgiveness. We, as Catholics, should not argue. But many times I find myself doing so in trying to prove a point. I have yet to learn to control myself. I burn with fervor for Jesus and always try to implement His teaching that are given us via the Magisterium. It is because of this I end
up doing what I do. I have learned that it is always not nice. Therefore, again I say I am sorry. The question I asked was out of curiosity. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[happilycatholic]

I believe I’ve found ‘middle ground’. I was just surfing through some old posts on the Apology threads and found a response from a poster that sums it up perfectly. This is a way in which I think all can agree that God does in fact ‘punish’ us and purify us with His Mercy in Purgatory:

*I would word this another way. The human concept of “punishment” is so different from the divine concept of “punishment” that I think the word serves no beneficial purpose in describing divine actions, motives or goals.

The whole discussion comes down to a few simple questions, I believe: why does God “punish”? What are his goals in “punishing”? What is the intended outcome of divine “punishment”? *
**
The only answer to arrive at is one of healing and transformation.
**
This is a very good insight as to why the word ‘punishment’ may have been left out of the catechism altogether and the reason we frequently read both views in Church documents.

I think it is fair to say that Purgatory is both. I still don’t concede that we have a requirement to believe on way or another, but I am in agreement that it is spritually healthier to believe in both and be inclusive rather than believe in one or the other and be exclusive in our belief about Purgtory.

God Bless,

~Tonya

 

[happilycatholic]

No, dear sister. I have not ridiculed or derided you in any way. If this is what you think,
then please accept my sincere apologies if I came on too strong. I beg forgiveness. We, as Catholics, should not argue. But many times I find myself doing so in trying to prove a point. I have yet to learn to control myself. I burn with fervor for Jesus and always try to implement His teaching that are given us via the Magisterium. It is because of this I end
up doing what I do. I have learned that it is always not nice. Therefore, again I say I am sorry. The question I asked was out of curiosity. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

No need to apologize and Javl, I humbly submit to you because of your experience and your wealth of knowlege. I believe in my heartfelt need to bring all to catholicism, I sometimes look to the ‘lighter’ aspects to try to attract so as not to scare anyone away. In doing so, I forget that the Magisterium is a whole and not parts. You are right, we must take the whole and not just the part we are attracted to. God’s Mercy is not always pretty, but it is always just and rewarding.

That is why I have referred to this as “my personal Purgatory”. I have been transformed by fire! It all came down to 2 Maccabees. In that instant I realized that there was no way they ‘could’ have escaped temporal punishment, either here or in the afterlife. In that way, I realized that if one dies ‘in’ mortal sin but otherwise faithful to God, one ‘must’ be punished in order to be rewarded.

No hard feelings, only gratefulness to you, to others, and most of all to the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

~Tonya

**I need to add to this, I would guess that one would have to be doing something like what the solidiers were doing, fighting a war for God. As opposed to something like comitting adultery. That would land you right in hell, right? The soliers only received pardon because they were acting on behalf of God’s will and received prayers from Judas. Their case was very special and not something I would think would happen often.

I just wanted to make it clear that I don’t think we are just simply forgiven if we die in mortal sin without confession.

 

[Javl]

No need to apologize and Javl, I humbly submit to you because of your experience and your wealth of knowlege. I believe in my heartfelt need to bring all to catholicism, I sometimes look to the ‘lighter’ aspects to try to attract so as not to scare anyone away. In doing so, I forget that the Magisterium is a whole and not parts. You are right, we must take the whole and not just the part we are attracted to. God’s Mercy is not always pretty, but it is always just and rewarding.

That is why I have referred to this as “my personal Purgatory”. I have been transformed by fire! It all came down to 2 Maccabees. In that instant I realized that there was no way they ‘could’ have escaped temporal punishment, either here or in the afterlife. In that way, I realized that if one dies ‘in’ mortal sin but otherwise faithful to God, one ‘must’ be punished in order to be rewarded.

No hard feelings, only gratefulness to you, to others, and most of all to the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

~Tonya

**I need to add to this, I would guess that one would have to be doing something like what the solidiers were doing, fighting a war for God. As opposed to something like comitting adultery. That would land you right in hell, right? The soliers only received pardon because they were acting on behalf of God’s will and received prayers from Judas. Their case was very special and not something I would think would happen often.

I just wanted to make it clear that I don’t think we are just simply forgiven if we die in mortal sin without confession.

I’m very happy that we are in agreement. It was just our different methods of presenting it.
We are both right and yet we both thought the other wrong. I humbly state that I wish my
knowledge were as great as yours. I put myself into the hands of the Holy Spirit for that.
May God Bless you abundantly and keep you and yours in His hands.

Len

 

[Padrej]

While here at Notre Dame on a speaking engagement I picked up a copy of Joseph Ratzinger’s (now the current Pope) book Called “Eschatology” originally published 1977 and now in its second edition. I am finding the section on Purgatory fascinating where he goes into the history of the doctrine. He speaks of the doctrine in terms of “attoning suffering”, “purifying” “fire of judgment” “judging fire” “prison” “burning fire” “external punishment” “punishment” “temporal punishment”.

This book is not as popular as his later writings BUT it is VERY deep theological stuff on death and life and the afterlife. Be careful it may surprise a few of you what some of his thoughts really are from back in 77 to what he writes now. IMO, he is a much softer theologian from being close to John Paul II, especially when you compair the above words with today’s writings on the same subject where he says things to the effect of “consuming fire of love that cleanses.” Far less harsh terms that those above.

 

[Padrej]

Hi Padre,

My post on the explaination from CA got posted at a strange point in the thread, which made it look as if I was posting it to concur with my question about Maccabees. Actually, it was a further response to your original post about Maccabees. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Anyhoo, I really like your response. I’ve always wondered how God’s Mercy is applied to us when we actually die committing a mortal sin. It’s a very strange circumstance. I asked the question in good faith and honesty. Actually, no one has been able to answer the question in the way you did. Most (even priests) I’ve talked to just say we rely on God’s mercy and I know that’s true, but you explained it in a way that actually is shown from Scripture. I’d not read 2 Maccabees in that way before and that’s why the question glared at me and you brought it right out!

I am touched by this and grateful for your explaination.



Thank you. Blessings,

~Tonya

Thank you for your kind words.
I read in post 454 you wonder about dying in mortal sin.
Let me ask you to consider the following: 1. I think you are spot on with your interpretation of the soldiers action in a war for God. 2. You bring up say dying in the act of another sin like adultery. NOW Do you believe that there is ANY sin other that the one mentioned as unforgivable (blaspheming the Holy Spirit) could not be atoned for. If the Bible says that God does not consider one sin as being above another that all are equal; so in another words a lie is the same as murder, that God could not forgive anything? Remember His words to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and compassion on whom I will have compassion;” sounds like God is pretty merciful to me.
So let us suppose God forbid you are in the midst of an affair and heart stops, do you think that as a Catholic that a priest would come and say, “oh no I can’t give her last rights she was in the midst of committing mortal sin?” I do not think a priest worth his salt would do such but rather anoint you and say the proper prayers for forgiveness over you. We are called to be merciful as God is.
To give you another example it used to be thought that a person who took their own life went straight to hell. Now we know that they are not in their right mind and we do not preach the “hell” thing anymore but rather the mercy of God. One suicide funeral mass I went to the priest said “this person was in so much pain he was searching for God in his own way, we don’t agree with it, but we don’t know how much pain he was in that only God could take away.” I had never looked at it from that perspective. How could a loving church tell a mother and father “your child is in hell because they did….” when we do not know if, let us say if they jumped off a bridge, on the way down asked forgiveness.

I don’t know if that answered you properly but it was my attempt.
Blessings
Padrej

 

[FrJohnB]

While here at Notre Dame on a speaking engagement I picked up a copy of Joseph Ratzinger’s (now the current Pope) book Called “Eschatology” originally published 1977 and now in its second edition. I am finding the section on Purgatory fascinating where he goes into the history of the doctrine. He speaks of the doctrine in terms of “attoning suffering”, “purifying” “fire of judgment” “judging fire” “prison” “burning fire” “external punishment” “punishment” “temporal punishment”.

This book is not as popular as his later writings BUT it is VERY deep theological stuff on death and life and the afterlife. Be careful it may surprise a few of you what some of his thoughts really are from back in 77 to what he writes now. IMO, he is a much softer theologian from being close to John Paul II, especially when you compair the above words with today’s writings on the same subject where he says things to the effect of “consuming fire of love that cleanses.” Far less harsh terms that those above.

Padre
Excellent choice in reading material! You will find the Holy Father’s view on Purgatory in this book very interesting as well as his views on life and death.
Interesting observation about him being a “softer theologian” although he is still strong on his stances his choice of words does seem to have changed over the years to be one of a more loving and compassionate person. Was it as you assert from being close to his predecessor? It could be, John Paul II was a very dynamic person.

 

[FrJohnB]

Thank you for your kind words.
I read in post 454 you wonder about dying in mortal sin.
Let me ask you to consider the following: 1. I think you are spot on with your interpretation of the soldiers action in a war for God. 2. You bring up say dying in the act of another sin like adultery. NOW Do you believe that there is ANY sin other that the one mentioned as unforgivable (blaspheming the Holy Spirit) could not be atoned for. If the Bible says that God does not consider one sin as being above another that all are equal; so in another words a lie is the same as murder, that God could not forgive anything? Remember His words to Moses “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and compassion on whom I will have compassion;” sounds like God is pretty merciful to me.
So let us suppose God forbid you are in the midst of an affair and heart stops, do you think that as a Catholic that a priest would come and say, “oh no I can’t give her last rights she was in the midst of committing mortal sin?” I do not think a priest worth his salt would do such but rather anoint you and say the proper prayers for forgiveness over you. We are called to be merciful as God is.
To give you another example it used to be thought that a person who took their own life went straight to hell. Now we know that they are not in their right mind and we do not preach the “hell” thing anymore but rather the mercy of God. One suicide funeral mass I went to the priest said “this person was in so much pain he was searching for God in his own way, we don’t agree with it, but we don’t know how much pain he was in that only God could take away.” I had never looked at it from that perspective. How could a loving church tell a mother and father “your child is in hell because they did….” when we do not know if, let us say if they jumped off a bridge, on the way down asked forgiveness.

I don’t know if that answered you properly but it was my attempt.
Blessings
Padrej

To tie into this response to Tonya:
The Catechism says this.
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

And again,
1395 By the same charity that it enkindles in us, the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins. The more we share the life of Christ and progress in his friendship, the more difficult it is to break away from him by mortal sin. The Eucharist is not ordered to the forgiveness of mortal sins - that is proper to the sacrament of Reconciliation. The Eucharist is properly the sacrament of those who are in full communion with the Church.

1436 Eucharist and Penance. Daily conversion and penance find their source and nourishment in the Eucharist, for in it is made present the sacrifice of Christ which has reconciled us with God. Through the Eucharist those who live from the life of Christ are fed and strengthened. “It is a remedy to free us from our daily faults and to preserve us from mortal sins.”

Now let us use Padrej’s example of a person in the act of adultery and dies. I as he said would never refuse that person the last rights of the church or a proper funeral mass. As Padrej points out in the example of the suicide person lets say in the midst of the act the person dying says, “Father forgive me” and I don’t know this and I go in like the proverbial bull in the china closet and tell the family this person that committed this act is in Hell and not in Purgatory. How have I injured this family who is already hurting? Would they want to remain part of the faithful? Would you?
This is where we need to pray all the more for the person’s soul. From para. 1436 it tells me that a Catholic has a stronger hope because of his/her relationship to the church and Eucharist than say one outside the church who never has a faith and is in total mortal sin. I hope this helps.

 

[landon13]

I am a protestant and have the same thought. This is not a reference to purgatory or prayer for the dead but it tells that you should not worship idols. This is because Judas found his friends with idols around their neck so he prayed for them. He did not pray for the dead but for their families and for the judging of the men. This is not a reference for any temporal place of punishment or prayer for the dead but for not worshipping idols.