How is final perseverance a grace

[oliver109]

So what youre saying is that God chooses to put people in the state of grace after confession, with that I agree, he does. What they do is make the choice to go to confession and ask for forgiveness, that is completely their own doing.

 

[Wesrock]

What is the grace part, that is what I do not understand, Toby chooses himself, are you saying that without grace Toby would somehow choose wrong?

Toby is unable to choose such a life without God’s grace enabling him to be able to choose it.

 

[Wesrock]

So what youre saying is that God chooses to put people in the state of grace after confession, with that I agree, he does. What they do is make the choice to go to confession and ask for forgiveness, that is completely their own doing.

People cannot repent their sins without God’s grace. God gives them the ability to do so, and only after that can man so choose.

 

[porthos11]

So what youre saying is that God chooses to put people in the state of grace after confession, with that I agree, he does. What they do is make the choice to go to confession and ask for forgiveness, that is completely their own doing.

It sounds to me you haven’t been properly catechized on the distinction between actual grace and sanctifying grace.

The very fact that confession is there is an actual grace. The very fact that he has legs, or a car, or a schedule that allows him to confess is an actual grace. All of these things are part of God’s providence, and so are all graces because one does not have complete control over all the circumstances of his existence.

But in any case, you should see where your argument falls apart. Even if the guy went to confession solely out of his free will with no help of actual grace, it is still God’s action restoring to sanctifying grace that leads to final perseverance. Because only when one dies in sanctifying grace can one be said to have the grace of final perseverance. No one gives sanctifying grace but God alone.

 

[oliver109]

I know God creates but Toby chooses, God cannot really do more than watch, yes God is the one who decides when he shall live and die but Toby is basically alone to work out his salvation, Whatever grace God provides has no concrete reality in Toby’s life, Toby feels temptations but it is him alone who overcomes them.

 

[Dan_Defender]

St Augustine declared that our merits are the gift of God inasmuch as they proceed from His grace. This also applies to final perseverance.

 

[CRV]

Toby did, he thought about making a good choice, others did not

Wrong. God did. God put the inspiration of the ‘good option’ to a deed into Tobys’ head.

He was baptised, God willed that

Yes he did. But he also gave Toby the Graces that come from Baptism. 15 Graces of Baptism

He went to confession he wanted to go, others did not want to go to confession

For instance, he moves you to repentance, and if you take the hint you can find yourself in the confessional, where the guilt for your sins is remitted

Christ

Yes he does. Christ being the second person of the Holy Trinity is God.

Christ

Correct. One GOD, Three Divine Persons of whom Christ is the second.

He resisted temptation,

Only by God’s grace.

Without God’s grace we can only sin. Toby used his will to conform his will to God’s Will to resist temptation. It is God who gives Toby the grace (strength of will) to resist the temptation.

Calling yourself a Pelgian as you did in your OP, may be true as you seem to be exaggerating the capacity of human nature so highly you are not leaving any room for God’s grace.

I’d also suggest in addition to the earlier links I posted (not sure if you’ve read them, but I think they’d answer a lot of your questions/concerns etc), the Catechism of the Catholic Church says this about man’s merit (perhaps this is what you are trying to say by stating Toby owes all the good he did to himself) -
Merit
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace . The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[oliver109]

God gives grace I understand but it does not seem to have any effect on some people, it is almost as if no grace was given at all seeing as they continue to keep sinning. That is why I think it is ultimately man who decides, not God, if God expected grace to work all people would come to repentance.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Toby owes it to himself that he avoided making the wrong choices, it was his choice that made all the difference.

If you think we can take all the credit for the good things we do in this world, including making right choices, then you’re sadly mistaken my friend.

Everything positive we manage to do in this world happens only through the grace of God and with the help of God. Without God, we can’t lift a pinky finger, much less achieve final perseverance or get to Heaven.

 

[oliver109]

Obviously without God I cannot do anything at all, even exist but when I do a good thing I feel that it was entirely down to me, no one was pulling the strings, no one was whispering in my ear urging me on, it was my choice.

 

[CRV]

it does not seem to have any effect on some people, it is almost as if no grace was given at all seeing as they continue to keep sinning.

Grace was given - just the person chose not to co-operate with His grace. Again, everyone has free will and some choose to unite it to and co-operate with the graces God gives, and others choose to follow their own wills and go against God’s Will.

Being given graces, does not negate our free will.

CCC The Dignity of the human person, Man’s freedom & responsibility
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil , and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

God gives grace I understand but it does not seem to have any effect on some people, it is almost as if no grace was given at all seeing as they continue to keep sinning. That is why I think it is ultimately man who decides, not God, if God expected grace to work all people would come to repentance.

Grace is not a magic spell, like God throws some grace fairy dust on people and it “works” to bring everybody to repentance.

People must choose to cooperate in order to receive and benefit from God’s grace.

Regarding people who keep sinning, if when they fall into sin, they keep getting up and repenting and trying again not to sin, then God’s grace keeps drawing them back and helping them repent and continue to try again when they fail.

If on the other hand people just keep sinning and never repent or try to change their ways, then they’re rejecting God’s grace. When they fall into mortal sin they are cut off from a lot of God’s grace so they probably aren’t even receiving it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

when I do a good thing I feel that it was entirely down to me, no one was pulling the strings, no one was whispering in my ear urging me on, it was my choice.

Well, that’s your own thinking mistake to work on. I would suggest you pray and think about that one a bit more and maybe discuss it with a priest or other spiritual counselor, because it’s never “entirely down to you.”

 

[oliver109]

Well I cant feel Gods grace, it is like it is not there, when I feel like doing a good thing it is because I find the outcome positive, because of the fear of Hell etc. I don’t feel anything like grace working on me.

 

[CRV]

no one was whispering in my ear urging me on, it was my choice.

That’s where you’ve gone wrong. God is that little voice that makes you hesitate before doing something, that little prick of conscience, that little doubt that comes that says “maybe not/maybe I shouldn’t”.

But you are right when you say it was your choice. You can either listen to that small inner voice, or you can ignore it or you can justify why you can do something you know or believe to be wrong.

 

[oliver109]

How do you know that is God? maybe it is just myself weighing up the pros and cons of taking such a choice.

 

[CRV]

Because without God we cannot do any good. There is good or bad. So God inspires the good, and satan or his cohorts inspire the bad. This does not negate our own decision making thought processes. You may be weighing up the good e.g. should I put money in the poor box against the bad of not putting some money in the poor box (assuming you can afford to do so). It would be bad because it would be selfish.

God grace inspires you to put money into the poor box. satans temptation is to not put money into the poor box and keep it instead to spend on yourself.

What you choose to do is entirely up to you/your freewill. You can either co-operate with God’s grace and put the money in the poor box or you can give in to the temptation of not doing so and perhaps commit a sin of omission.

 

[Latin]

I know God creates but Toby chooses, God cannot really do more than watch,

Oliver Please consider, you are the best Architect in the world and you decided to build the biggest and most beautiful building in the world.

So, you design the building, you design every event down to its minutest details which need to take place to complete the building.

You recruit your builders, you give your builders the building design, which contains every event of it down to its minutest details.

Now Oliver what you do?

Do you cause your builders to act according to your building design which contains every event down to its minutest details?

Or you just watch and let you builders do according to their whim?

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CATHOLIC SOTERIOLOGY ON THIS SUBJECT, WE ARE GOD’S BUILDERS.

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.

307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…
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2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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God creates and God causes Toby to freely choose what God wills, empowers and commissions Toby to choose.
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As you see Oliver, if God would let us act according to our whims, instead of completing His creation we would build the Tower of Babel.
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God bless

 

[Maximus1]

I must admit my ignorance of Final Perseverence. I don’t think it intentional. Perhaps what is described as our natural aversion to actually contemplating our own death.
I offer my experience into life’s incoherence by publishing that I have followed Doctor Peter Fenwick’s work over the last decade. Fenwick is a pioneer as a true scientist studying NDE’S and on a wider scale, observable phenomena in the process of death. He is a Clearinghouse for thousands of case studies now. With observers positioned strategically in hospices and equivilent facilities globally.
Interestingly, the descriptions and phenomena are incredibly consistent with Catholic mystic writings.
People in the final cycle will undress and remove clothing, jewels, and the indicia of " the flesh" as they pass. ( Often naked under a sheet).
Their transition is often aided by passed loved ones or family, or other significants, who " come back" to help them. The dying are witnessed engaging in dialog and it I hard not to recognise that this phenomena assists in the transition.
Atheists ironically, have the greatest phycological difficulty returning from NDE experience. Not because they tasted fire and brimstone. This is very rare! It is because of authenticity.( An unavoidable conclusion)
What I never read was some last minute battle. The phenomena of death as a process is clearly consistent with a loving God in that it has patterns that correlate as scientifically significant, and those patterns involve what appears to be a preparation to pass to a new existence. Often with help from loved ones. Fenwick has since written about an awkward subject. Pointers basically for family, in facilitating a good death.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Final perseverance is described as being a grace that can only be given by God, I find that hard to understand, call me a Pelagian if you will but how I understand final perseverance is that take someone called Toby for example, Toby goes to mass, receives the sacraments, avoids sin, prays for a good death but ultimately lives life well and chooses right and so dies free of sin, Toby owes it to himself that he avoided making the wrong choices, it was his choice that made all the difference. How was his good death a grace?

We pray for perseverance to hold to faith until our last breath. We pray for God to give us this grace.