How is free will possible when God knows every "move" we'll ever take?

[passer_by]

But everyone doesn’t choose that, do they? Unless we believe hell is empty, you are positing a God Who would bring into existence an innocent baby He already knows will never choose Him and will ultimately die and exist in agony forever.

I think there is something wrong with the above 2nd statement.

You are saying the baby is innocent and yet you are saying he/she after growing up will never freely choose God and will reject him. Is there no contradiction?

Or, are you asking why “God would bring about the existence of someone when he knows that they will reject him”?

If so, the reason is because it is always good to exist. When a writer writes a book, he wants to give life to ALL the characters (in his limited way). He does not discriminate between good characters and bad characters. He wants them all to exist in the story.

So God wants us all to exist. Even the person who rejects God.

To LOVE is to will the good of another. You cannot LOVE someone that does not exist. Since God LOVES even the ones that would reject him, he brings them in to existence.

So when you ask the question, why would God create someone who would be bad and reject him and choose hell, you are really asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is, would it be a GOOD FOR ANY PERSON to not exist and not come to know the LOVE of God?

I think the answer is NO.

 

[juno24]

But everyone doesn’t choose that, do they? Unless we believe hell is empty, you are positing a God Who would bring into existence an innocent baby He already knows will never choose Him and will ultimately die and exist in agony forever.

No, I don’t believe that everyone chooses God. But that’s beside the point. You stated that no one has free will because God knows what each of us will choose. God’s knowledge of who will choose for Him and who will choose against Him has no bearing on our actual ability to choose either way. Does God know that some people will choose Hell? Of course. Does that mean that He does not present opportunities for that person throughout his or her life to choose otherwise? No. It just means that no matter how much God wants for us to choose Him, He will not force that upon us. It really is our freedom to choose for or against Him. Unfortunately, I believe many will indeed choose against.

 

[Julia_Mae]

No, I don’t believe that everyone chooses God. But that’s beside the point. You stated that no one has free will because God knows what each of us will choose.

No, that’s not what I said. I said God doesn’t know what we will choose. IF it were true that He did know all things beforehand:

** It would, IMO, make life a futile exercise devoid of purpose. It would mean God creates people who are inevitably destined for Hell. It would make freewill a fantasy we are all having. It would even mean that no one is guilty of anything, as God already knew they would sin and they have no real choice in the matter from the moment of their conception. It negates the purpose of Jesus’ Incarnation.**

If God knows all things before He creates us, then we have no freewill, we are just following a predetermined pathway.

God’s knowledge of who will choose for Him and who will choose against Him has no bearing on our actual ability to choose either way. Does God know that some people will choose Hell? Of course. Does that mean that He does not present opportunities for that person throughout his or her life to choose otherwise?

Who cares? He already knows the innocent children are going to hell. He already l knows what “opportunities” He is “presenting” to them and that they will reject them. That is, with full knowledge of their future eternal suffering, He brings those babies to life. Your version of God is a monster, IMO.

No. It just means that no matter how much God wants for us to choose Him, He will not force that upon us.

*But He will force eternal suffering on the unborn? *

It really is our freedom to choose for or against Him. .

Not according to you. According to you all our choices are known to God before we ever enter this life. It’s all predetermined.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Or, are you asking why “God would bring about the existence of someone when he knows that they will reject him”?

I’m not asking. I’m pointing out that this would be supremely evil and God would never do it. Ergo: God does not know our choices before we make them.

If so, the reason is because it is always good to exist.When a writer writes a book, he wants to give life to ALL the characters (in his limited way).

Yeah, well, we are all real people not imaginary characters and creating someone just so they can suffer agony eternally for no e reason other than God wants to see them live, would make Him a cosmic psychotic two-year-old.

What you should be asking is, would it be a GOOD FOR ANY PERSON to not exist and not come to know the LOVE of God?

I think the answer is NO.

You just said “would it be good for a person to not exist…” If something doesn’t exist, it’s not a person, or any other thing, because it doesn’t exist.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Juila, as a Catholic interpret this verse for us

[BIBLEDRB]Jer 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

And philosophically, I suggest reading Prima Pars of the Summa Theologica, especially questions 14, 22, 23 and 83. Would like to hear your opinion afterwards.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Juila, .

Trevor, if you have something you believe that’s different from what I said, then this thread would be a good place to say what and why. As for me, I think I’ll choose both what I post and what I read for myself. If you want to pull a quote from the Summa to a make a point, that’s up to you.

 

[juno24]

If God knows all things before He creates us, then we have no freewill, we are just following a predetermined pathway.

Not so. Foreknowledge is not at all the same as predetermination. Just because God knows what will happen and what we will choose does NOT mean that he has in any way influenced or established what we choose.

Who cares? He already knows the innocent children are going to hell. He already l knows what “opportunities” He is “presenting” to them and that they will reject them. That is, with full knowledge of their future eternal suffering, He brings those babies to life. Your version of God is a monster, IMO.

I agree that a god who brings forth a creature just for the purpose of causing it to suffer is monstrous. Of course, that is not the God of Christianity.
By your logic, I should call every parent who ever lived monstrous, as well. Every parent brings forth a child with absolute knowledge that the child WILL suffer, WILL experience pain, WILL knowingly and willfully choose things that will bring on that suffering and pain, and that the child WILL die. How monstrous. Does that mean that people should never bring forth children? Or that they should never offer better choices, or better yet, try to teach the child how to make wise decisions? Of course not.

But He will force eternal suffering on the unborn?

Of course not. Forcing eternal suffering on someone means that the person attempted to choose for the good but was prevented by God from doing so. The very definition of force is to do something against the will of the person experiencing the force. If that child grows up continually making the choice against God, then his suffering is not forced upon him, it is chosen with his own consent and knowledge.

Not according to you. According to you all our choices are known to God before we ever enter this life. It’s all predetermined.

Of course all of our choices are known to God. But as I said before, just because He knows how we will choose does not mean that he determines how we will choose. They are 2 separate concepts. His knowledge of our choices in no way effects those choices (it does not cause us to choose a certain way).

 

[JRKH]

No, that’s not what I said. I said God doesn’t know what we will choose. IF it were true that He did know all things beforehand:

• It would, IMO, make life a futile exercise devoid of purpose. It would mean God creates people who are inevitably destined for Hell. It would make freewill a fantasy we are all having. It would even mean that no one is guilty of anything, as God already knew they would sin and they have no real choice in the matter from the moment of their conception. It negates the purpose of Jesus’ Incarnation.*

If God knows all things before He creates us, then we have no freewill, we are just following a predetermined pathway.

Julia,
The question that follows here then is, “who is determining our pathway?”
If one says that God is determining, or had determined, our pathway, then indeed there is no free will.
On the other hand if one says that we determine our pathway - but God knows ahead of time the results of our choices. Then we have free will.
Christ, in the Gospel speaks often of the need for us to choose - to choose the right path, to strive to enter the narrow gate etc. Likewise, Christ speaks of god waiting to give, upon request, the things we need and ask for.

Peace
James

 

[passer_by]

I’m not asking. I’m pointing out that this would be supremely evil and God would never do it. Ergo: God does not know our choices before we make them.

But this contradicts Church doctrine on Providence and Scripture it-self. So its an unacceptable position for a Catholic.

Yeah, well, we are all real people not imaginary characters and creating someone just so they can suffer agony eternally for no e reason other than God wants to see them live, would make Him a cosmic psychotic two-year-old.

Did you read the 2nd part of my reply?

You cannot LOVE what does not exist. So God, if he LOVES everyone, creates them.

You are essentially saying its better to not exist and not be LOVED by God for some people. Do you think that acceptable?

You just said “would it be good for a person to not exist…” If something doesn’t exist, it’s not a person, or any other thing, because it doesn’t exist.

?? A person is a thought of God. He contingently exists before creation. Just like you and me. If God loves everyone, he rightly creates EVERYONE.

 

[belorg]

The core idea of this solution is there exists truths known as counterfactuals of creaturely freedom. A truth of this form would be

Proposition 1: “If John was in the bookstore today he would freely choose to buy a book on Molinism”

If such truths exist, since God knows all truths, he would know every such truth about you and me. So prior to creating the world, he evaluates all these truths and picks the world that brings about the salvation of each and every possible creature who would “freely” choose to accept his grace and be saved. Then he creates that world and since he planned it, God already knows every single move.

How does “in every possible world in which John is in a bookstore today he will buy a book on Molinism” entail any sort of liberatrian free will. Doesn’t LFW presuppose that there is a possible world in which John, being in a bookstore freely decides not to buy a book on Molinism?

Now it is true that some of these persons, would freely choose to reject him no matter which situation God puts them in.

I think this an even better illustration of how Molinism is actually incompatible with libertarian free will, because here you say (and you are in good company, because William Lane Craig believes the same thing), that there is a person P who in every possible world rejects God.
Now if P in every possible world chooses to do A, then by definition that P does not have libertarian free will, because LFW entails the possibility to choose ~A, something you expliciltly deny here.

 

[passer_by]

How does “in every possible world in which John is in a bookstore today he will buy a book on Molinism” entail any sort of liberatrian free will. Doesn’t LFW presuppose that there is a possible world in which John, being in a bookstore freely decides not to buy a book on Molinism?

No. Because the 2nd would be a false proposition about John. So its not that John can’t prevent himself from buying the book. It’s just that John will never FREELY choose to NOT buy the book.

I think this an even better illustration of how Molinism is actually incompatible with libertarian free will, because here you say (and you are in good company, because William Lane Craig believes the same thing), that there is a person P who in every possible world rejects God.

Now if P in every possible world chooses to do A, then by definition that P does not have libertarian free will, because LFW entails the possibility to choose ~A, something you expliciltly deny here.

How does it follow from the proposition

(1) P in every possible world freely chooses to do A

that

(2) There is no Libertarian Free will?

I would think to the contrary that Proposition (1) shows that P has libertarian free will. Why? Because no matter what takes place in every possible world causally prior to P making the choice, P would still follow his free will and choose A.

So it is not that P CANNOT choose ~A. It just happens that P would NEVER choose ~A. This might be what is throwing you off.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Julia_Mae]

I agree that a god who brings forth a creature just for the purpose of causing it to suffer is monstrous. Of course, that is not the God of Christianity.
By your logic, I should call every parent who ever lived monstrous, as well. Every parent brings forth a child with absolute knowledge that the child WILL suffer, WILL experience pain, WILL knowingly and willfully choose things that will bring on that suffering and pain, and that the child WILL die.

The comparison is ludicrous. You are conflating occaisional and temporary suffering on earth with constant horrendous torture forever and ever.

Forcing eternal suffering on someone means that the person attempted to choose for the good but was prevented by God from doing so.

Not in this case. In this case it means a person who doesn’t even exist yet, is created whom God already knows will suffer torment for eternity.

The very definition of force is to do something against the will of the person experiencing the force. If that child grows up continually making the choice against God, then his suffering is not forced upon him, it is chosen with his own consent and knowledge.

But we aren’t given a choice, are we? It’s not like God says to us before we come here: “Now, with your consent, I’m going to send you to live in earth and you are going to reject me and do a lot of evil and die and go to hell and exist in excruciating pain for all of eternity. That okay with you?” According to your view, this is what God is doing, only without giving us any choice at all.

Of course all of our choices are known to God

.

Who says? This isn’t some attribute of God we are asked to believe by the Church. The Creed contains only omnipotence, only power.

 

[Julia_Mae]

But this contradicts Church doctrine on Providence and Scripture it-self. So its an unacceptable position for a Catholic.

God does not know what we will choose before we choose it. If you have some official “doctrine” that says otherwise, post it.

You cannot LOVE what does not exist.

But you can know what the creature who doesn’t yet exist is going to do with every second of their lives before they do exist?

You are essentially saying its better to not exist and not be LOVED by God for some people. Do you think that acceptable?

No, I am saying that there is no possible way God would bring into existence anyone He knew would end up suffering the torment of hell for eternity. If that happened, it would not be LOVE, it would be monstrous. Ergo: God does not know our choices before we make them.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This might be what is throwing you off.

What’s throwing you off appears to be a really bad definition of the word “omniscient” as applied to God.

 

[babylonsfalling]

As much as I know I have free will a part of me wonders how this is possible if God knows every* “move” *I’ll make in life and my ultimate destiny.At times I’ve thought that even though he gives us free will he knows what we ultimately will do however knowing what that fate is,is as trivial as asking God what his favorite ice cream flavour is (-_-…strange comparision I know but it’s out of me being low on ideas as to what to pick as a metaphor).I know that some people dont think it’s not a trivial matter but maybe I’m saying that because I’d rather not know my ultimate fate because it might cause some like predestination paradox.It’s not like I’m stating this like I have something againest it but I’m asking it to find out how it’s possible since we have free will (a part of me saying it is satisfiyingly possible).I’d appreciate if any one could replies with an explanation and/or thought on this thank you very much so for your time.

Knowing what you will do does not equal causing what you do.

 

[JRKH]

All such conversations as this are ultimately futile…So much Dust in the Wind.

The OP asks…How is it possible…?

To which the ultimate reply can only be…With God all things are possible.

Let no one lose their peace in the Lord or their hope of salvation over this matter.

Peace
James

 

[juno24]

The comparison is ludicrous. You are conflating occaisional and temporary suffering on earth with constant horrendous torture forever and ever.
Not in this case. In this case it means a person who doesn’t even exist yet, is created whom God already knows will suffer torment for eternity.

But we aren’t given a choice, are we? It’s not like God says to us before we come here: “Now, with your consent, I’m going to send you to live in earth and you are going to reject me and do a lot of evil and die and go to hell and exist in excruciating pain for all of eternity. That okay with you?” According to your view, this is what God is doing, only without giving us any choice at all.
Who says? This isn’t some attribute of God we are asked to believe by the Church. The Creed contains only omnipotence, only power.

Julia, I wish you well in your search for truth. Obviously I have been of no help. Resorting to ridicule and insults along with continually telling me what I believe and what my views are rather than asking me for clarification where you obviously misunderstand will get neither of us anywhere.
As I believe you are truly searching for answers and not just argument, I will leave you with this from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Beyond what I quote here, it does go on to discuss the same difficulties you are having re: free will and omniscience.

Divine knowledge

Description of the Divine Knowledge

That God is omniscient or possesses the most perfect knowledge of all things, follows from His infinite perfection. In the first place He knows and comprehends Himself fully and adequately, and in the next place He knows all created objects and comprehends their finite and contingent mode of being. Hence He knows them individually or singularly in their finite multiplicity, knows everything possible as well as actual; knows what is bad as well as what is good. Everything, in a word, which to our finite minds signifies perfection and completeness of knowledge may be predicated of Divine omniscience, and it is further to be observed that it is on Himself alone that God depends for His knowledge. To make Him in any way dependent on creatures for knowledge of created objects would destroy His infinite perfection and supremacy. Hence it is in His eternal, unchangeable, comprehensive knowledge of Himself or of His own infinite being that God knows creatures and their acts, whether there is question of what is actual or merely possible. Indeed, Divine knowledge itself is really identical with Divine essence, as are all the attributes and acts of God; but according to our finite modes of thought we feel the need of conceiving them distinctly and of representing the Divine essence as the medium or mirror in which the Divine intellect sees all truth. Moreover, although the act of Divine knowledge is infinitely simple in itself, we feel the need of further distinctions — not as regards the knowledge in itself, but as regards the multiplicity of finite objects which it embraces. Hence the universally recognized distinction between the knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) and that of simple intelligence (simplicis intelligentiae), and the famous controversy regarding the scientia media. We shall briefly explain this distinction and the chief difficulties involved in this controversy.

 

[babylonsfalling]

All such conversations as this are ultimately futile…So much Dust in the Wind.

The OP asks…How is it possible…?

To which the ultimate reply can only be…With God all things are possible.

Let no one lose their peace in the Lord or their hope of salvation over this matter.

Peace
James

God wants faith, not secular explanations.

 

[passer_by]

God does not know what we will choose before we choose it. If you have some official “doctrine” that says otherwise, post it.

But you can know what the creature who doesn’t yet exist is going to do with every second of their lives before they do exist?

No, I am saying that there is no possible way God would bring into existence anyone He knew would end up suffering the torment of hell for eternity. If that happened, it would not be LOVE, it would be monstrous. Ergo: God does not know our choices before we make them.

Your position is known in official terms as “Open Theism” and is not an acceptable position for a Catholic.

As for proof that your view is wrong, the following

Even before a word is on my tongue,
O Lord, you know it completely.
Your eyes beheld my unformed substance.
In your book were written
all the days that were formed for me,
when none of them as yet existed. – (Psalm 139:4,16)

The lot is cast into the lap,
but the decision is the Lord’s alone. – (Proverbs 16:33)

For you have done these things and those that went before and those that followed. You have designed the things that are now, and those that are to come. What you had in mind has happened; the things you decided on presented themselves and said, “Here we are!” For all your ways are prepared in advance, and your judgement is with foreknowledge. – (Judith 9:5-6)

We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. – (Romans 8:28-30)

The following is from Vatican I

But God protects and governs by His providence all things which He made, “reaching from end to end mightily and ordering all things sweetly” [cf. Wisd. 8:1]. For "all things are naked and open to His eyes [Heb. 4:13], even those which by the free action of creatures are in the future. – (Dei Filius, Vatican I)

There are many many more, but I hope this points out the error to you.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Knowing what you will do does not equal causing what you do.

Unless you don’t exist yet and then someone causes you. That means the one who causes you has made the actions you will take happen.