How is "Full Consent" demonstrated since it's a completely subjective experience?

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Weakness compromises consent. Does it not? (maybe not - asking).

I could take it one step further (silly but may help illustrate) and say the person committed the act because someone held a gun to their head. Now is it consent, or weakness?

Full consent means willingness to do something. In the case of examples, he did them unwillingly.

I think the point is, in your opinion he gave full consent, in the opinions of others he did not. Subjective.
 
If you are threatened with a weapon and choose, for example, to deny your Faith, then you will have made a clear choice by preferring your life to the witness of your Faith in God.
Ditto for the one who chooses to lie so as not to appear ridiculous, he preferred human respect to the truth.
So yes in all these cases, there was an act of the will that deliberately made a choice
 
Good video, but it illustrates the point of subjectivity.

His missing Mass example:
How do we define “know”. Any Catholic would really have to have his head in the sand to not -know- that the Church states that missing Mass is of grave matter. But mot Catholics miss Mass anyway (according to many studies). I’d suggest that “know” the church teaches that missing Mass is a sin of grave matter. But most just do not believe it. They think the “Church” has it wrong in this regard. The attitude “I am not going to hell because I missed Mass”. They are theologically challenged on the teaching. Therefore in this example, “full knowledge:” is compromised.

Just some thoughts - I am not professing anything here, just throwing out for discussion 🙂
 
Your definitions on this matter are quite strong. Therefore I’d guess you also hold strongly to the Catholic teaching that when one dies in a state of mortal sin one immediately goes to hell (in the catechism). If one follows the other, it would follow that the vast majority of people (and most all Catholics) go to hell. Come to think of it, mostly Catholics because others do not have “Full Knowledge”.

Very simple math gets me there. By some estimates only 30% of Catholics attend weekly Mass. (My experience is much less than 30% attend weekly Mass regularly). You don’t have to be a mathematician to conclude from that very very few make it heaven.

Not very much Hope and Joy here.
 
Mboo said:
But if she chooses to stay with him there is full consent and therefore there is mortal sin.
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Here’s where we disagree. First, only God knows if she is sinning at all.

Second, in the situation you describe, “full knowledge and complete consent” are lacking. You said that “full consent should not be confused with difficulty.” I’m afraid that doesn’t make sense to me. Without even knowing specific circumstance in this general example you can see that her “free choice” or “free will” is severely limited. If she and her children leave her partner, how will she support them? Where will they live? Perhaps her parents and/or friends would think she was irresponsible for leaving her partner. Perhaps she loves her partner. All of those factors–and of course a lot more–would severely constrain her “freedom” and her “complete consent.” Are they “difficulties”? Sure. But I think God is more concerned with the spirit of the law than the letter of the law. And of course that’s the debate about Amoris Laetitia.

No need to reply–we disagree. And that’s OK.
 
Mijoy2 said:
Just some thoughts - I am not professing anything here, just throwing out for discussion
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I agree. “Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God.” (catechism section 1855) Missing Mass may be a church law, but I doubt if anyone who misses Mass says to themselves “I am now consciously and of my own free will turning away from God, and I realize that this will destroy charity in my heart.” And those who miss Mass generally do not act in their daily lives like they have abandoned all sense of morality and decency.

There seem to be two distinct groups of people, not only on this forum, but in the Catholic Church: One group I call the “black-and-whiters.” For them, everything is pretty cut and dried: It’s a major matter, you know it is, and you sin anyway. Off to Hell with you. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. The other group (me included) is a lot more uncertain. We would never say “So-and-so sinned” because we feel only God knows that, not anyone else. So we don’t pass judgment. We would also be hesitant to say “X is a mortal sin” without a context, both of the person involved and the circumstances. I would be apt to say “That MIGHT be a mortal sin.” We would recognize that there are laws and rules, but there are also always exceptions to those laws and rules. We realize that Jesus made a point–several times–of emphasizing that it was the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law (searching for a lost sheep on the Sabbath, curing the sick on the Sabbath…) that was important to God. To sum it up, I think it’s pretty hard to commit a mortal sin–you really have to work at it.

If I can make a silly analogy–I think I’m borrowing from a Jennifer Aniston movie–“It’s not that I want you to do the dishes. I want you to WANT to do the dishes.” The Church wants us to go to Mass on Sunday. Fine. But beyond that, the Church needs to convince us that we WANT to go to church on Sunday. And it hasn’t done that for the vast majority of people. I would place the blame on the Church, not the people.
 
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As they say: If you are unsure you’ve committed a mortal sin, then you haven’t committed a mortal sin.
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
If I can make a silly analogy–I think I’m borrowing from a Jennifer Aniston movie–“It’s not that I want you to do the dishes. I want you to WANT to do the dishes.”
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I am in full agreement with the entire post.

I like the quote. I will be using it. 😃
 
BenSinner said:
I’m struggling to know what exactly is considered “full consent” of the will in committing a mortal sin.

Since no one can’t know the thoughts and intentions of another, how does one demonstrate what “full consent” is to another?

The Church says in order to commit mortal sin, one has to have “full consent”.

I can’t read the thoughts and intentions of the bishops and popes who declared this dogma.
For all I know, what I consider no consent at all might be considered full consent by the Church.

Basically what I’m asking is, how can I trust my judgement to know something is fully intentional since “intention” is a purely subjective thing that I can only know about myself?
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When it is a personal choice. The choice may be made directly or through indifference to what is good.

Catechism, on moral conscience:
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” 59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
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1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart 133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
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James 1:12 Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord[d] has promised to those who love him. 13 No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. 14 But one is tempted by one’s own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved

James 4:4 Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you suppose that it is for nothing that the scripture says, “God yearns jealously for the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But he gives all the more grace; therefore it says,

“God opposes the proud,
but gives grace to the humble.”

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin.
 
Vico said:
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” 59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits
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What would be a good indicator that we have taken little trouble to finding out?

A scrupulous person may consider not searching for 12 hours on Google trying to find something “taking little trouble”
 
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1859.htm

“Full consent” does not mean you sigh an affidavit that you agree to go to hell for all eternity. Deliberate personal choice.

The opposite of “someone or something forced me and I had no other choice”.
 
A hypothetical;

One misses Mass to witness a sporting event. The following Sunday, the same one goes to Mass and receives the Eucharist. How many mortal sins is that?
0, 1 or 2?
 
BenSinner said:
I’m struggling to know what exactly is considered “full consent” of the will in committing a mortal sin.
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I don’t understand why. The gravity of a sin isn’t a subjective matter - don’t commit one, and if you do then commit an act of contrition while you run to confession ASAP. There’s really no need to wring your hands about your level of culpability.
 
How do you trust your judgment?

Listen to mature fellow Catholics who have developed prudence for a guide on what is meant by certain things. Such a one will tell you that if it requires someone holding a gun to your head to force you to do it, then you have a situation of impaired consent. You will slowly learn from such examples what is deliberate consent and what isn’t, and develop prudence of your own.

You might be concerned that you may not have prudence now, however. Here is where one of the basics of Christian spirituality helps. Trust God. He is on your side. He makes all things work together for good. He knows you are where you are with prudence. It is not like you have to manufacture all sorts of blessings for yourself, by yourself, for things to work out well. You have what you have, and it is enough for you, because God is on your side. God will provide.

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
 
BenSinner said:
…
What would be a good indicator that we have taken little trouble to finding out?

A scrupulous person may consider not searching for 12 hours on Google trying to find something “taking little trouble”
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Since we have the Catholic Catechism, I think reading all of it would provide all core teachings.
 
Thoughts are not sins. It is what you do with the thoughts that can make them sins. If I confessed every thought that popped into my male brain every day I might as well never leave the confessional. I just turn away from the thought. No sin. Telling people with scrupulosity (a recovering addict myself) that thoughts are sins will only feed their scrupulosity.
 
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Hi BenSinner…

Although I agree that there are many areas of which one may call an area a grey area, there has to some prudence\ logic \ judgement to making a decision as to when one has put forth a due effort in discerning the truth. I don’t count my efforts in hours on Google. Although I readily admit that google has become the search engine of choice in most peoples investigatory efforts. But I do count my “Googling” followed by my decersion of what is worth following up on and what is probably not as due prudence.

Not everything is black and white as we (Catholics searching for specifics) may wish it were. There must be (by our nature) some work on our part as well to come to a satisfying truth.

I don’t think (at least I hope not) that God will say to me the moment after my death, that I spent 1 millisecond too long looking at that picture of a naked woman. Who knows, perhaps He will. But I think His infinite Mercy accounts for these things.

I too look for more concrete answers in these matters. But may be it is time to yield to His mercy. What-do-ya-think?
 
JoeFreedom said:
Thoughts are not sins. It is what you do with the thoughts that can make them sins.
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That is not strictly correct. Do we not say in the Confiteor, “…in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and what I have failed to do”?

Thoughts can be sins (at least venial) in themselves (at least if deliberately dwelled upon). That doesn’t mean that as a rule they necessarily are, but that at least sometimes they can be.
 
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