How is Holy Orders valid to EO but not to Protestants?

[ConstantineTG]

How can they be valid if Lutherans, Angelicans, Episcopalians, and et cetera do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches about them, for example, Transubstantiation.

You are on to something here. If the priest doesn’t believe that through him the bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, then he may not have the proper intention to actually confect a valid Eucharist.

 

[Digitonomy]

How can they be valid if Lutherans, Angelicans, Episcopalians, and et cetera do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches about them, for example, Transubstantiation.

Some Catholic priests don’t believe in transubstantiation and other Catholic teachings. Luckily, the faithful are not dependent on the beliefs of the priest for the validity of the sacrament.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I was told by a priest that once an ordained minister leaves the Catholic Church, they can no longer effect any of the Sacraments, except perhaps Baptism. Therefore, the idea that those bishops who joined Luther could still effect the Eucharist is false.

No. As long as they have valid intent, matter and form (and being ordained they are the proper minster) then they can still confect a valid Sacrament. If they are missing one of those, then the Sacrament is not valid. So if a priest becomes an Evangelical Minister, he probably wouldn’t be able to consecrate bread and wine anymore because he’s thinking its just symbolic, this lacks the valid intent. But if he still believes in the Real Presence, then the Eucharist will be valid.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

No. As long as they have valid intent, matter and form (and being ordained they are the proper minster) then they can still confect a valid Sacrament. If they are missing one of those, then the Sacrament is not valid. So if a priest becomes an Evangelical Minister, he probably wouldn’t be able to consecrate bread and wine anymore because he’s thinking its just symbolic, this lacks the valid intent. But if he still believes in the Real Presence, then the Eucharist will be valid.

And all that is required for valid intent is to intend to do as the Church does. So any priest in a Catholic Church can be assumed to have valid intent.

Those outside of the Church who are acting illicitly we can not have that assumption.

 

[Spirithound]

I was told by a priest that once an ordained minister leaves the Catholic Church, they can no longer effect any of the Sacraments, except perhaps Baptism. Therefore, the idea that those bishops who joined Luther could still effect the Eucharist is false.

Confecting the Eucharist is a power that is inherent to the priestly state itself; it can never be taken away (subject to the priest’s intent). Reconciliation and Confirmation, on the other hand, require faculties from the bishop. The bishop would likely have revoked these faculties when the priest defected, and so his attempt to celebrate those sacraments would be invalid. As far as I know, a bishop also needs a jurisdiction in order to Confirm, which he loses if he defects, but he retains the power to Reconcile (despite being in sin himself). Again, subject to his intent.

 

[valentino]

For liceity, yes a bishop must have a papal mandate. However, for validity, he only needs one bishop to ordain him.

thanks alot.Does that happen often that a bishop ordains a priest and later he ordains him a bishop?Or did it just happen in this case and maybe a few others?BTW can you tell me how they finally elected their Patriarch?I assume they are elected by a group of bishops.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And all that is required for valid intent is to intend to do as the Church does. So any priest in a Catholic Church can be assumed to have valid intent.

Those outside of the Church who are acting illicitly we can not have that assumption.

Yup. But priests who leave the Catholic Church sometimes is not because of theology, but could be of some other thing. I never followed his case, but Fr.Cutie for example, he never stopped believing in the Real Presence, did he? I know all he wanted was to get married, that is why he left.

But you are right, its hard to assume what the priest is intending unless he makes an honest profession about it. We can just assume that once they left the Church and went to a group that denies the Real Presence that they have lost the proper intent to be able to consecrate bread and wine.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yup. But priests who leave the Catholic Church sometimes is not because of theology, but could be of some other thing. I never followed his case, but Fr.Cutie for example, he never stopped believing in the Real Presence, did he? I know all he wanted was to get married, that is why he left.

But you are right, its hard to assume what the priest is intending unless he makes an honest profession about it. We can just assume that once they left the Church and went to a group that denies the Real Presence that they have lost the proper intent to be able to consecrate bread and wine.

My reply was to ensure those who might doubt the Eucharist from their priest as they may think their priest might deny the Real Presence.

My follow up statement, “Those outside of the Church who are acting illicitly we can not have that assumption.” was to show that we do not know. It may be the real Eucharist or it may not depending on the priest now rather than the Church as when the priest was in communion with his bishop.

 

[Spirithound]

thanks alot.Does that happen often that a bishop ordains a priest and later he ordains him a bishop?Or did it just happen in this case and maybe a few others?BTW can you tell me how they finally elected their Patriarch?I assume they are elected by a group of bishops.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure which particular case you’re talking about.

It does happen sometimes that the same bishop ordains a man to the priesthood and later the episcopate, but the first bishop must be pretty young to start off with It did recently happen that Bishop Sherlock of London ordained Bishop William McGrattan to the episcopate, having years earlier ordained him to the diaconate and priesthood.

The Orthodox Patriarchs are elected by a group of Othodox bishops.