How is it not "birth control" if a couple uses timing and temp to prevent conception?

[Rence]

However, you seem to have the gist of what I was saying, that to think to one’s self “Well, we can’t use ‘the pill’ or condoms…but I know a way around it! Haha! Take that, prohibitions against contraception!” is the wrong frame of mind to be in.

From what I understand from the many many threads regarding this subject, one can’t really have that attitude because of the abstinence factor involved. With ABCs, one can share the marital embrace with little perceived consequences. But with NFP, you actually have to abstain, which is why so many people hate to use it, and instead use ABCs. If one’s attitude is just merely not to have kids (which I don’t believe. I believe there’s always an underlying serious reason if someone decides they shouldn’t conceive), they wouldn’t bother with NFP, they would just use ABCs like the 96% of Catholics who say they are using ABCs.

 

[Bookcat]

It is not about “artificiality” or “non-artificiality”…

And “contraception” is the key term really…not “birth control”…

**
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI**

1. When is it moral to regulate births?

2368-2369
2399

The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.

1. What are immoral means of birth control?

2370-2372

Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Nate13]

From what I understand from the many many threads regarding this subject, one can’t really have that attitude because of the abstinence factor involved. With ABCs, one can share the marital embrace with little perceived consequences. But with NFP, you actually have to abstain, which is why so many people hate to use it, and instead use ABCs. If one’s attitude is just merely not to have kids (which I don’t believe. I believe there’s always an underlying serious reason if someone decides they shouldn’t conceive), they wouldn’t bother with NFP, they would just use ABCs like the 96% of Catholics who say they are using ABCs.

Sorry I have to correct this every time I see it and maybe it will get through eventually. The poll you are quoting asked “have you ever used contraceptives?” not “do you currently use contraceptives?”. I’m sure 96% of Catholics have used contraceptives at some point in their life just as I’m sure 96% of Catholics have stolen something at some point in their life. In essence all the poll proves is Catholics are human beings…

 

[Rence]

Sorry I have to correct this every time I see it and maybe it will get through eventually. The poll you are quoting asked “have you ever used contraceptives?” not “do you currently use contraceptives?”. I’m sure 96% of Catholics have used contraceptives at some point in their life just as I’m sure 96% of Catholics have stolen something at some point in their life. In essence all the poll proves is Catholics are human beings…

I’m not sure what you’re trying to ‘get through’. All the polls I’ve seen have shown over 95% of Catholics either have used or are using ABCs. And you are very right about all the polls proving that Catholics are human beings. No one ever said otherwise.

 

[Nate13]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to ‘get through’. All the polls I’ve seen have shown over 95% of Catholics either have used or are using ABCs. And you are very right about all the polls proving that Catholics are human beings. No one ever said otherwise.

There is a fundamental difference between saying 95% of Catholic are currently using contraceptives and saying 95% of Catholics have used contraceptives at some point in their life.

Its same fundamental difference between saying 95% of Catholics are currently stealing something, as opposed to saying 95% of Catholics have stolen something at some point in their life…

In other words this poll is useless.

 

[Rence]

There is a fundamental difference between saying 95% of Catholic are currently using contraceptives and saying 95% of Catholics have used contraceptives at some point in their life.

Its same fundamental difference between saying 95% of Catholics are currently stealing something, as opposed to saying 95% of Catholics have stolen something at some point in their life…

ok

 

[Nate13]

ok

Sorry for being snappy, but I have corrected this about 5 times now in different threads

From what I understand from the many many threads regarding this subject, one can’t really have that attitude because of the abstinence factor involved. With ABCs, one can share the marital embrace with little perceived consequences. But with NFP, you actually have to abstain, which is why so many people hate to use it, and instead use ABCs. If one’s attitude is just merely not to have kids (which I don’t believe. I believe there’s always an underlying serious reason if someone decides they shouldn’t conceive), they wouldn’t bother with NFP

In answer to the rest of your question, yes I agree that many people that are using contraceptives to prevent having children may be doing so with good intentions and even just reasons for not wanting a child at that time. However having just reasons for not wanting a child does not give someone free reign to do whatever necessary to achieve that goal.

 

[Luvtosew]

I think according to the Catholic Church the only reason to get married is to have children,
if you don’t plan on having children you should not get married and never have sex.

 

[Nate13]

I think according to the Catholic Church the only reason to get married is to have children,
if you don’t plan on having children you should not get married and never have sex.

Children is the most important reason to get married. The Church recognizes there are other reasons, but all other reasons are subordinate to being able to welcome children into the World. The unitives purpose of sex and marriage goes hand in hand with having children.

 

[Luvtosew]

Children is the most important reason to get married. The Church recognizes there are other reasons, but all other reasons are subordinate to being able to welcome children into the World. The unitives purpose of sex and marriage goes hand in hand with having children.

What are the other reasons??

 

[Rence]

Sorry for being snappy, but I have corrected this about 5 times now in different threads

I don’t think it’s going to change anything, but if it makes you feel better, ok

In answer to the rest of your question, yes I agree that many people that are using contraceptives to prevent having children may be doing so with good intentions and even just reasons for not wanting a child at that time. However having just reasons for not wanting a child does not give someone free reign to do whatever necessary to achieve that goal.

The fact of the matter is, the Catholic Church forbids Catholics from using ABCs, and only allows them to use NFP to regulate births. If a Catholic wants to remain in communion with the Church, then they really don’t have any recourse but to use NFP. But many people don’t trust NFP and the need to not get pregnant drives their decisions.

 

[Nate13]

What are the other reasons??

The unitive purpose. Bringing children into the World is great and all, but if the mother and father are not “one body” in all meanings of the phrase, the child’s existence will be ripe with strife. Thus why the Church recognizes that all acts of sex must be both unitive and procreative. If you took off unitive it would mean one spouse or the other could force themselves on the other in the name of having children. You cannot have sex or a marriage that is just unitive or just procreative. They have to be taken hand in hand.

 

[Rence]

What are the other reasons??

People I know IRL want the bond between them and the person they marry, and find that the most important aspect of marriage. The Church recognizes this as an important reason. While the Church requires children out of a marriage, no one I know IRL, Catholic or not, believes that it’s a requirement. I know many many people who want to get married, but not have kids.

That said, I think that those who are being called to have large families are doing so. And those who are being called to have small families are doing so. There is no magic forumla for families, and they will all be different.

Now, otoh, I know many who would like to have kids, but would not like to be married

 

[Nate13]

I don’t think it’s going to change anything, but if it makes you feel better, ok

The fact of the matter is, the Catholic Church forbids Catholics from using ABCs, and only allows them to use NFP to regulate births. If a Catholic wants to remain in communion with the Church, then they really don’t have any recourse but to use NFP. But many people don’t trust NFP and the need to not get pregnant drives their decisions.

Contraception is either wrong or it isn’t wrong. Are there times when you support euthanasia? Is there a certain amount of suffering, pain, and imminent death that a person reaches that makes murder ok?

I only bring this up because your argument is that there are times where there is so much strife at having a child that you can’t believe that God would say it was wrong to use contraception to prevent a child from coming into the world. My point is that yes he does so with my example regarding euthanasia. It does not matter how much pain that person is in, it is never ok to murder them. You can do everything possible to limit that person’s pain and offer relief, but it is never ok to kill them in order to give them that relief. Do pain medications work as well as killing them? No. Does NFP work as well as some contraceptives? Debatable You cannot claim contraception must be ok just based on the possible strife that can occur if a person is not allowed to use it.

 

[Luvtosew]

IRL - what does that mean? sorry not up on my abbreviations.

Well I think its a good teaching to wait till marriage to have sex, but then when one is married I think the most important thing is to remain faithful and not cheat. With most birth control pills the woman doesn’t ovulate, very seldom, and well I see nothing wrong with getting a vasectomy or tubes tied, as long as its not a liscense to cheat on your spouse.

 

[Rence]

Contraception is either wrong or it isn’t wrong…

I only bring this up because your argument is that there are times where there is so much strife at having a child that you can’t believe that God would say it was wrong to use contraception to prevent a child from coming into the world.

My arguement is this: ABCs are against the rules of the Church. If a Catholic is in Communion with the Church, they can’t use ABCs. That doesn’t mean they’re not Catholic anymore, by virtue of their Baptism, but that means they have chosen to not be in Communion with the Church in this matter. Period. That’s my position on ABCs.

It is merely my observation IRL that the majority of Catholics choose not to regard Church rules in this matter, and it’s as simple as that.

. Does NFP work as well as some contraceptives? Debatable You cannot claim contraception must be ok just based on the possible strife that can occur if a person is not allowed to use it.

NFP is viewed by many as unreliable, difficult to learn, burdensome to follow, and a strain on their marriage. Many others view it as the most wonderful thing since Peanut Butter and Fluff sandwiches. In a true medical situation in which the life of the mother would be at peril with another pregnancy, nothing is as reliable as complete abstinence.

 

[Rence]

IRL - what does that mean? sorry not up on my abbreviations.

Well I think its a good teaching to wait till marriage to have sex, but then when one is married I think the most important thing is to remain faithful and not cheat. With most birth control pills the woman doesn’t ovulate, very seldom, and well I see nothing wrong with getting a vasectomy or tubes tied, as long as its not a liscense to cheat on your spouse.

Sorry Luvtosew, IRL = In real life. As in, not on online forums, but in real life in the real world.

And I’ll just simply add that birth control pills, condoms, or any other form of artificial contraceptions, vasectomies and tubal ligation is against Church rules.

 

[Luvtosew]

Sorry Luvtosew, IRL = In real life. As in, not on online forums, but in real life in the real world.

And I’ll just simply add that birth control pills, condoms, or any other form of artificial contraceptions, vasectomies and tubal ligation is against Church rules.

yes I know, so I will say once again,

stay single and never have sex, or get married and abstain or have children as many as you get. That is the only way the Catholic Church allows, and well there are many sinning Catholics out there because Catholic are human.

 

[Rence]

yes I know, so I will say once again,

stay single and never have sex, or get married and abstain or have children as many as you get. That is the only way the Catholic Church allows, and well there are many sinning Catholics out there because Catholic are human.

One can’t argue with that…it is what it is…

 

[Incomplete]

. While the Church requires children out of a marriage, no one I know IRL, Catholic or not, believes that it’s a requirement.

The Church does not require children out of a marriage. They only require openness to life.