"How Is It We Are Here?"

[Robert_Sock]

It’s the million dollar question that underlies a many philosophical arguments and is worthy of spiritual reflection and meditation. This question was the product of the Moody Blues, a rock band from yesteryear. Answers like, “well, God put us here out of love,” does not do the question justice. We ought to delve deeper, and rethink its implications.

The very notion that we were created and placed here is mind-boggling. Perhaps lyrics describe my feelings the best:

*“I never been laid so low
In such a mysterious way.”
-Paul Simon - Mother and Child Reunion.
*
(I’m rambling, people, help me out here, and provide the spiritual insight to make sense of this life!)

 

[ThinkingSapien]

The very notion that we were created and placed here is mind-boggling.

Trying to understand this. What does it mean? Is it possible for any one to find them self in any place that would not be described as “here”? What are the alternatives.

 

[HolyRosaryChild]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The interesting thing is (and I mean this most respectfully) is that I have never really questioned how we all got here; the Old Testament and New Testaments sufficient (Jesus Scriptures); I knew that God existed and knowing that He created a version of every creature and human being here on Earth in which they multiplied into the billions.

The wonder and beauty of His World and how God created every human being in each of of His own countries (darker skinned people originally in the hotter countries and paler skinned people in the cooler countries/climates), His creatures great and small born originally into His most suitable countries,climates and environments along with millions of other things we all learn about our Planet and Creatures during our Lives.

No-one will know the Mystery of God our Heavenly Father until they meet Jesus (and that should be sufficient for each and every one of us to strive hard for our Souls down here working towards our Heavenly goal)!

Jesus says: No-one will know Our Heavenly Father until they know me nor enter into the Kingdom of Heaven wealthy"; this statement of Jesus to myself includes that ‘no-one will know God or anything about God until we believe, trust and know Jesus’.

Put it this way, if you were God our Heavenly Father and created Moses and all of His Apostles and the rest of the population, sent down His only Begotten Son Jesus, who sacrificed His Life and died on His Cross for us, to give Love and Mercy to all sinners and the ability to forgive our sins; would you be allowing sinners down here to know God’s origins and how He came into Being or to reveal His Holy Powers and Reasons for placing Adam and Eve and all of His Countries and Children throughout His World.

Further, the messages I received from Jesus Scriptures was that He wanted His Children and Heavenly Father’s Children to trust and have full confidence in Him without performing miracles in front of them and without spreading His Miracles about (to others) which gets back to 'believing in Him, trusting in Him, and having full confidence in Him. A Golden Cross to me!

“Happy are those who have not seen and believed in me” (Jesus)

“When you search with all your Heart, I will let you find me” (Jesus)

 

[LegoGE1947]

Trying to understand this. What does it mean? Is it possible for any one to find them self in any place that would not be described as “here”? What are the alternatives.

Some of the alternatives would be “there”, “Someplace else” “A Thousand Miles From Nowhere” by Dwight Yoakam, “Anyplace” “Somewhere over the rainbow.” Twenty miles from Eleventh Street. Timbuktu or TwoBucktim.

 

[superwimp]

Hello Robert,

If an individual begins with the premise that we have a soul, defined as something unique to each of us that continues on after our body dies, then the most logical conclusion is that were here because we chose to come here.  

 If we claim that this soul comes into existence either at birth or at some time during the pregnancy cycle, then as far as I can see there is nothing in the biological process that would create a soul.  One can assume that God creates a new soul each time a woman becomes pregnant, but does that really make sense?  

If our souls existed prior to our arrival here then it means that we (as souls) figured out how to inhabit biological lifeforms, or that God puts our souls into these bodies.  The most logical of the two is that we are here because we chose to come here.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

From the catechism:

III. “THE WORLD WAS CREATED FOR THE GLORY OF GOD”

293 Scripture and Tradition never cease to teach and celebrate this fundamental truth: "The world was made for the glory of God."134 St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things “not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it”,135 for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: "Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand."136 The First Vatican Council explains:

This one, true God, of his own goodness and “almighty power”, not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel "and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . .

294 The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us “to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace”, for "the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man’s life is the vision of God: if God’s revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word’s manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God."139 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God “who is the creator of all things may at last become “all in all”, thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude.”

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Some of the alternatives would be “there”, “Someplace else” “A Thousand Miles From Nowhere” by Dwight Yoakam, “Anyplace” “Somewhere over the rainbow.” Twenty miles from Eleventh Street. Timbuktu or TwoBucktim.

Yes, and if any of those places is your present location then it becomes “here” since that’s a synonym for present location. I could go so far to say that “As long as you exists, you are always ‘here.’”

 

[LegoGE1947]

Yes, and if any of those places is your present location then it becomes “here” since that’s a synonym for present location. I could go so far to say that “As long as you exists, you are always ‘here.’”

I would choose 3 blocks from Eleventh Street since that is where I am at present. Unfortunately I couldn’t buy a “present” because the stores were closed.

 

[JP2Admirer]

If our souls existed prior to our arrival here then it means that we (as souls) figured out how to inhabit biological lifeforms, or that God puts our souls into these bodies.  The most logical of the two is that we are here because we chose to come here.

Two things - if we chose to come here, why do we have no memory of it? Seems contrary to experience to state we chose something that we don’t recall doing, with no possible verification that we just forgot it.

Second - What is the soul? If it is the first grade actuality of a naturally organized body, then the matter into which the act of the soul comes into must precede the actuality, I.e. the potency must be actual before it is actual. Doesn’t seem logical.

I’m in no way disparaging your (name removed by moderator)ut here, as several great thinkers held a form of reincarnation to be true. Augustine himself struggled with this question. Thomas deals well with this topic in his Contra Gentiles. Don’t have the reference right in front of me, but if I find it I will post it.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hello Robert,

If an individual begins with the premise that we have a soul, defined as something unique to each of us that continues on after our body dies, then the most logical conclusion is that were here because we chose to come here.  

 If we claim that this soul comes into existence either at birth or at some time during the pregnancy cycle, then as far as I can see there is nothing in the biological process that would create a soul.  One can assume that God creates a new soul each time a woman becomes pregnant, but does that really make sense?  

If our souls existed prior to our arrival here then it means that we (as souls) figured out how to inhabit biological lifeforms, or that God puts our souls into these bodies.  The most logical of the two is that we are here because we chose to come here.

Thanks! Who in their right ‘mind’ would choose to come into this miserable and corrupt world? When I wrote the OP, I was just getting over a panic attack. Things look very different when we are in pain or strong discomfort. It’s like: Get me out of this wretched body already. Knowing that the body will be resurrected after bodily death in this world is anything but good news.

 

[Richca]

It’s the million dollar question that underlies a many philosophical arguments and is worthy of spiritual reflection and meditation. This question was the product of the Moody Blues, a rock band from yesteryear. Answers like, “well, God put us here out of love,” does not do the question justice. We ought to delve deeper, and rethink its implications.

The very notion that we were created and placed here is mind-boggling. Perhaps lyrics describe my feelings the best:

*“I never been laid so low
In such a mysterious way.”
-Paul Simon - Mother and Child Reunion.
*
(I’m rambling, people, help me out here, and provide the spiritual insight to make sense of this life!)

In the Baltimore Catechism, the question is asked “Why did God make us?
The answer, " God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.” This is a wonderful meditation.

 

[Beryllos]

The very notion that we were created and placed here is mind-boggling.

Okay, I guess there are two parts to your inquiry: How/why were we created, and how/why here?

JohnMPhilomena quoted the Catechism regarding why we were created, why God created all things including Man: “for the glory of God.” Richca also quoted the Catechism: “God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.” Those sound good, but I am not completely satisfied. Aren’t we awfully conceited to think that we humans, with all the limitations and failings in every aspect of our existence (our physical bodies, our knowledge and judgment, our relationships, our society, dare I say even our religions?), are the image and likeness of God, that we glorify God, and that God wants to share happiness/heaven with us? I can see that this could be a hard philosophical point.

I am a scientist, and the more I learn about the laws of science and nature, the more wondrous it seems. Space and time and matter and energy, and the natural laws that govern it all, are so perfect, everything beautifully ordered and interconnected. A planet like Earth is so improbable; so many separate factors are necessary to make it suitable for life and habitable for man. What we know about life, that is, living things, even from a purely physical standpoint, is utterly amazing. I can see how all creation gives glory to God.

ThinkingSapien and LegoGE1947 have had some fun with the question of why are we “here.” I’ll just add that Einstein thought deeply about how space and time are connected, and wondered not only why we are “here”, but why we are “now.” In other words, why do we experience time serially (moment to moment) rather than in an all-encompassing gaze? Einstein wrote:

“… the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one.”

There’s another mind-boggler. Praise the Lord!

 

[polytropos]

Yes, and if any of those places is your present location then it becomes “here” since that’s a synonym for present location. I could go so far to say that “As long as you exists, you are always ‘here.’”

I agree. I think when people make statements such as, “It’s impressive that we’re here,” they mean equivalently, “It’s impressive that we exist.” And that’s true.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Okay, I guess there are two parts to your inquiry: How/why were we created, and how/why here?

JohnMPhilomena quoted the Catechism regarding why we were created, why God created all things including Man: “for the glory of God.” Richca also quoted the Catechism: “God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.” Those sound good, but I am not completely satisfied. Aren’t we awfully conceited to think that we humans, with all the limitations and failings in every aspect of our existence (our physical bodies, our knowledge and judgment, our relationships, our society, dare I say even our religions?), are the image and likeness of God, that we glorify God, and that God wants to share happiness/heaven with us? I can see that this could be a hard philosophical point.

I am a scientist, and the more I learn about the laws of science and nature, the more wondrous it seems. Space and time and matter and energy, and the natural laws that govern it all, are so perfect, everything beautifully ordered and interconnected. A planet like Earth is so improbable; so many separate factors are necessary to make it suitable for life and habitable for man. What we know about life, that is, living things, even from a purely physical standpoint, is utterly amazing. I can see how all creation gives glory to God.

ThinkingSapien and LegoGE1947 have had some fun with the question of why are we “here.” I’ll just add that Einstein thought deeply about how space and time are connected, and wondered not only why we are “here”, but why we are “now.” In other words, why do we experience time serially (moment to moment) rather than in an all-encompassing gaze? Einstein wrote:

There’s another mind-boggler. Praise the Lord!

I need to have fun with questions. I believe that’s what I’m “here” for, to inject a little humor into this life.

 

[GospodiPomiluj]

How humbling it is to know that we are complete mysteries to ourselves. In this practical world that needs answers to everything, I find that the love of the mystery itself is a thing of beauty that has been lost in modern society. Perhaps if I lived in one of those “medicinal” States I could delve deeper. (By the way, that last sentence I was just joking )

 

[superwimp]

Hello jp2admirer and Robert,

Two things - if we chose to come here, why do we have no memory of it? Seems contrary to experience to state we chose something that we don’t recall doing, with no possible verification that we just forgot it.

When we dream (are mind is in one state of consciousness) we usually don’t remember what the dream was about when we wake up ( a different state of consciousness). I would think it’s natural for us to forget what happened in another state of consciousness.

Second - What is the soul? If it is the first grade actuality of a naturally organized body, then the matter into which the act of the soul comes into must precede the actuality, I.e. the potency must be actual before it is actual. Doesn’t seem logical.<<<

I don’t understand the above but I’ll try and answer it anyway. I believe God is the Creative Force rather than the Supreme Being that he is normally thought of as. So the naturally organized body would be the Creative Force and our souls would be the first grade actuality. We are moving to become one with this force. I’ll need more clarification on the rest of what you wrote.

Thanks! Who in their right ‘mind’ would choose to come into this miserable and corrupt world? When I wrote the OP, I was just getting over a panic attack. Things look very different when we are in pain or strong discomfort. It’s like: Get me out of this wretched body already. Knowing that the body will be resurrected after bodily death in this world is anything but good news. <<<

When you leave here you will have some unfinished issues with your earthly life that you will need to resolve. Why were you not the football star in high school? Why didn’t you get to go to the senior prom? Why were you passed over for promotion? These will all eat away at you while your in “heaven” and you will want to come back.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Hello jp2admirer and Robert,

Two things - if we chose to come here, why do we have no memory of it? Seems contrary to experience to state we chose something that we don’t recall doing, with no possible verification that we just forgot it.

When we dream (are mind is in one state of consciousness) we usually don’t remember what the dream was about when we wake up ( a different state of consciousness). I would think it’s natural for us to forget what happened in another state of consciousness.

Second - What is the soul? If it is the first grade actuality of a naturally organized body, then the matter into which the act of the soul comes into must precede the actuality, I.e. the potency must be actual before it is actual. Doesn’t seem logical.<<<

There is truly lots of unfinished justice in this world (although I prefer mercy to justice any day!) I guess I didn’t have much choice in coming to this world, but here I am! I have panic attacks quite often, in fact I wonder if my life hasn’t just been one 66-year long panic attack. One of my favorite songs when I was a kid was “Make The World Go Away” by Eddy Arnold. My current state of consciousness is Illinois. (I’ll give you the usual 5 seconds to say “You poor dear”!) I was not the football star in school. Most times I felt like I was the football! I would have rather not gone to the Senior prom since I went by myself. I was passed over for some promotions but was right in the front row when they passed out the pink slips and told people their services weren’t needed any more. If that stuff eats away at me forever it won’t exactly be " heaven". I’ve taken to offering this stuff up since a priest told me that “no one ever suffered anymore than Jesus.”

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I agree. I think when people make statements such as, “It’s impressive that we’re here,” they mean equivalently, “It’s impressive that we exist.” And that’s true.

Thanks for explaining.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Thanks for explaining.

As Ricky Ricardo used to say " You got some 'splaining to do, Lucy!"

 

[Linux]

Trying to understand this. What does it mean? Is it possible for any one to find them self in any place that would not be described as “here”? What are the alternatives.

If we consider space as a whole, we would have to say that space is nowhere.