How is Limbo not Hell?

[Ghosty]

Pelagianism has nothing to do with the Beatific Vision being based on ‘humanness.’

You’ll have to explain to me what you mean by the Beatific Vision being based on “humanness”. You said that the unborn not receiving the Beatific Vision seems to make a new class of “humanity”, but I don’t see how that could be so given the nature of Grace and the Beatific Vision.

How can an unborn baby commit sins? Other than original sin?

They can’t, and that is my point. They don’t “commit” Original Sin, either; it’s merely the privation of Grace.

My point was that Limbo is what Hell is for those who are not being punished for committed sins.

What btw is the answer if they do receive Grace?

If they do receive Grace then they have the Beatific Vision. There’s no other answer possible that I’m aware of.

Hell is for those who choose to be separated from God.

This is part of the problem, I think. Hell isn’t necessarily for those who CHOOSE to be seperated from God, it’s for those who ARE seperated from God. Grace is unity with God, lack of Grace is seperation. We don’t have to “choose” a lack of Grace; on the contrary we are all born without it. That is the limit of what we can say for certain; whether the unborn are given some kind of access to Grace is beyond our knowledge.

Again, the key is that Hell isn’t about “choice” per say, but about seperation from God. For most of us that is a result of a choice, but it’s not the “choice” that makes Hell.

If they choose to be united with God, then why would they go to the outside circle of Hell (Limbo) and not to Purgatory? Unless you are saying that Purgatory is the outside circle of Hell (Limbo)? Are you saying that Limbo is Purgatory?

We don’t know that they have such a choice. Quite simply, it’s utterly beyond the scope of our knowledge. If they choose Grace, then they could not in any sense be in Hell.

Purgatory is something entirely different. It’s for those who have Grace but have unhealthy attachments to creatures. A Baptized infant, for example, wouldn’t experience Purgatory at all, and Purgatory is in no way related to Limbo; they are completely seperate and different ideas.

The trouble is that we have more specific notions for what happens to adults who die than for the unborn who die.

That’s because we can observe the choices adults make. An adult who rejects Baptism, or commits mortal sin, is clearly denying Grace on some level, so we have more information to work with. For the unborn all we have is the knowledge that they can’t enter Heaven without Grace. Period. Everything else is speculation.

No we don’t know that.

We do, it’s a Dogmatic point of fact. A number of Canons from the Council of Trent deal with this, here is just one:

If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

Without Grace we quite simply can’t have eternal life. Period. Eternal life is the Beatific Vision.

But the Church has an opinion that the unborn who die will not receive the Grace to attain the Beatific Vision.

The Church doesn’t have any such opinion; the Church says we don’t know one way or another. The Church states affirmatively that Original Sin alone, however, is enough to damn us to Hell, but with “unequal punishments”, i.e. Limbo versus the suffering of the “fires of Hell”. Whether or not the unborn are able to receive the Grace that cancels Original Sin or not is not something the Church has ruled on, nor one it holds an “opinion” on. Some Catholics have varying opinions, that’s all.

Myself I prefer to hold the opinion of non-assertion: I don’t know, and I’m quite comfortable with that.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Techno2000]

Pelagianism has nothing to do with the Beatific Vision being based on ‘humanness.’

OK.

No, we can’t.

How can an unborn baby commit sins? Other than original sin?

What btw is the answer if they do receive Grace?

This is all confusing to me. Hell is for those who choose to be separated from God. So if the unborn can choose to be separated from God, presumably they will go to Hell. If they choose to be united with God, then why would they go to the outside circle of Hell (Limbo) and not to Purgatory? Unless you are saying that Purgatory is the outside circle of Hell (Limbo)? Are you saying that Limbo is Purgatory?

Strictly speaking that’s all we can do for anyone. The trouble is that we have more specific notions for what happens to adults who die than for the unborn who die.

No we don’t know that. But the Church has an opinion that the unborn who die will not receive the Grace to attain the Beatific Vision.

Does the Church have a corresponding opinion that adults who die will not receive the Grace to attain the Beatific Vision?

The Bible doesn’t give details on some things, I think Limbo is
highest level of purgatory, and soul there, will only be there, until the end of the world.

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm#CHAPTER%20LIX

trumpetersmission.com/messages_purgatory.htm

 

[Ghosty]

The Bible doesn’t give details on some things, I think Limbo is
highest level of purgatory, and soul there, will only be there, until the end of the world.

That doesn’t fit the tradition of Limbo, however. Nothing is being “purged” in Limbo, so it wouldn’t fit the notion of Purgatory, and the Limbo of the Infants, at least (which is the issue up for discussion) is a permanent place.

It’s an opinion, but an entirely new one not based on any traditions, whether Biblical or Sacred Tradition.

Peace and God bless!

 

[debraran]

I don’t understand how anyone can think that our just and perfect Lord would let a baby (he said not to keep his children from him) be seperated from him by no fault of their own. The church said things in the past that it amended and limbo seemed a cruel thing to say to parents of lost or stillborn children, especially when they didn’t even give them funerals back then. In some ways the church is not perfect, but trusting the Lord and not worrying about it the best you can do. I trust him to know much more than any of us and some things we will never be able to comprehend.
Remember he forgave a sinner on the cross, not baptised probably and not a follower of him. He was to be with him in paradise after his “purgatory” on the cross…how is an innocent baby worse off?

 

[Techno2000]

That doesn’t fit the tradition of Limbo, however. Nothing is being “purged” in Limbo, so it wouldn’t fit the notion of Purgatory, and the Limbo of the Infants, at least (which is the issue up for discussion) is a permanent place.

It’s an opinion, but an entirely new one not based on any traditions, whether Biblical or Sacred Tradition.

Peace and God bless!

limbo is like a semi-Heaven the soul would only be there until
the end of the world, because it say in Revelation that there is going
to be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

 

[Ghosty]

limbo is like a semi-Heaven the soul would only be there until
the end of the world, because it say in Revelation that there is going
to be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

Limbo, no matter how nice, is still Hell by definition. Hell will no pass away at the end of the world, so the souls there would remain there.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Techno2000]

Limbo, no matter how nice, is still Hell by definition. Hell will no pass away at the end of the world, so the souls there would remain there.

Peace and God bless!

You read Dante Too…

 

[Techno2000]

Dante’s Map of Hell :

angelfire.com/ak/Nyquil/Dante.html

 

[Ghosty]

Dante wasn’t the originator of the idea that Limbo is part of Hell, he was just reflecting popular theology.

Peace and God bless!

 

[pacislander4lif]

There is no limbo of the infants. It is a made up, and seriously flawed view of God. A Loving God would want babies with him completely, not “linked but seperated.” God is Love, therefore, limbo of the infants does not exist.

Not much of an argument… How about:

God is love, therefore Hell doesnt exist…

 

[porthos11]

The more I think about it, the more Limbo seems just another name for Hell. Eternal separation from God. Hearts forever restless (for our hearts are restless until they rest in God). Everlasting despair of never attaining that for which we were made.

How is this not Hell?

It actually is. Limbo is derived from limbus, meaning edge, or rim. It was understood by St. Augustine to be the rim or edge of hell. In this rim, the inhabitants suffered the least of torments, but deprived of God’s vision. This has been taken to mean a place of natural happiness; that is, the happiest we can possibly be as if were here on earth.

I personally go along with the new Catechism and remain ambivalent about limbo. I would rather understand it the way the Church officially puts it: she commends the unbaptized infants to the mercy of God, considering his words that “Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them, for the Kingdom of heaven belongs to those such as these.”

 

[Techno2000]

Dante wasn’t the originator of the idea that Limbo is part of Hell, he was just reflecting popular theology.

Peace and God bless!

Dante Alighieri
The Divine Comedy
Translated by
James Finn Cotter

Well, I read this," Divine Comedy" and thought it was fantastic,
I believe he really did experience this journey in a supernatural
way, and it is soooooo Catholic.

italianstudies.org/comedy/index.htm

 

[Ghosty]

Dante Alighieri
The Divine Comedy
Translated by
James Finn Cotter

Well, I read this," Divine Comedy" and thought it was fantastic,
I believe he really did experience this journey in a supernatural
way, and it is soooooo Catholic.

italianstudies.org/comedy/index.htm

Oh, I’ve read it. It’s brilliant. I think I just misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Greg27]

It is interesting to note that even in Dante’s Divine Comedy some pagans make it into heaven, being ‘baptised’ in ways we don’t know, and he also includes some unbaptised infants in the great Rose. When Dante enquires into why this is so he is told not to try and understand the mysteries of God’s judgements, which are infinitely above our comprehension. The recent Vatican report into Limbo tended to reflect such a position, simply saying we must entrust unbaptised infants to God’s mercy, which is as infinite as he is.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ghosty:

You’ll have to explain to me what you mean by the Beatific Vision being based on “humanness”.

I’ll try but I can’t guarantee that I will successfully communicate the problem because I simply do not follow the logic of the Church on this matter. I am not angry at the Church. Simply stating honestly my own shortcomings.

Eligibility for the Beatific Vision seems to be based – in part – on the age of a human.

Those humans who have not yet been born do not seem to be eligible.

Ghosty:

You said that the unborn not receiving the Beatific Vision seems to make a new class of “humanity”, but I don’t see how that could be so given the nature of Grace and the Beatific Vision.

Yes. One class is the unborn who cannot receive Beatific Vision no matter what the circumstance. Another class is the born who can receive Beatific Vision presumably under certain circumstances.

Is it Jesus’s goal to seek out the lost sheep? Or is it not?

Are the unborn not the lost sheep? Or are they not?

If they are, then they are eligible for the Beatific Vision. That is not to say that they are guaranteed the Beatific Vision.

Ghosty:

They don’t “commit” Original Sin, either; it’s merely the privation of Grace.

I did not say they commit original sin.

Ghosty:

My point was that Limbo is what Hell is for those who are not being punished for committed sins.

Yes, I understand. I merely disagree that the unborn automatically go to any part of Hell.

Ghosty:

If they do receive Grace then they have the Beatific Vision. There’s no other answer possible that I’m aware of.

But I understand that the Church says that they do not attain Beatific Vision. So this is one of the contradictions in this teaching. I have not worked all that through yet.

Ghosty:

This is part of the problem, I think. Hell isn’t necessarily for those who CHOOSE to be seperated from God, it’s for those who ARE seperated from God.

And since we are given free will, we are separated from God because we choose to be separated from God.

Ghosty:

Grace is unity with God, lack of Grace is seperation. We don’t have to “choose” a lack of Grace; on the contrary we are all born without it. That is the limit of what we can say for certain; whether the unborn are given some kind of access to Grace is beyond our knowledge.

But not beyond our ability to reason. Faith cannot be unreasonable. Truth cannot contradict truth.

Ghosty:

Again, the key is that Hell isn’t about “choice” per say, but about seperation from God.

Folks choose to be separated from God.

Ghosty:

For most of us that is a result of a choice, but it’s not the “choice” that makes Hell.

It is the choice that gets foks to Hell. Because Hell is where they want to be.

Ghosty:

We don’t know that they have such a choice. Quite simply, it’s utterly beyond the scope of our knowledge.

But not beyond the scope of our reason. Faith cannot be unreasonable. Truth cannot contradict truth.

Ghosty:

If they choose Grace, then they could not in any sense be in Hell.

I agree.

Ghosty:

Purgatory is something entirely different. It’s for those who have Grace but have unhealthy attachments to creatures.

I know this.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ghosty:

A Baptized infant, for example, wouldn’t experience Purgatory at all, and Purgatory is in no way related to Limbo; they are completely seperate and different ideas.

If Limbo is not a part of Hell, then of what is it a part? So far we have three choices: Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven. Is there a fourth category of Limbo? That can’t be, because a previous poster has already demonstrated that Limbo is an outer circle of Hell. That outer circle business does not make sense so Limbo has to be Purgatory. Why? Because the unborn are not yet sanctified and cannot yet enter Heaven.

Ghosty:

That’s because we can observe the choices adults make. An adult who rejects Baptism, or commits mortal sin, is clearly denying Grace on some level, so we have more information to work with. For the unborn all we have is the knowledge that they can’t enter Heaven without Grace. Period. Everything else is speculation.

We cannot know that anyone enters Heaven. (Except the Saints.) I never said that we can know this. But the Church is saying that they can know that the unborn cannot enter Heaven. That doesn’t make sense to me.

By the way there is nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is reasonable.

Ghosty:

We do, it’s a Dogmatic point of fact. A number of Canons from the Council of Trent deal with this, here is just one:

This one does not apply specifically to Grace for the unborn.

Ghosty:

Without Grace we quite simply can’t have eternal life. Period. Eternal life is the Beatific Vision.

Can you clarify please? Can the unborn have Grace?

Ghosty:

Myself I prefer to hold the opinion of non-assertion: I don’t know, and I’m quite comfortable with that.

I am not comfortable with folks not being able to exercise the free will which is accorded by God to all human beings. The unborn are human beings.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

debraran:

In some ways the church is not perfect, but trusting the Lord and not worrying about it the best you can do.

No. Not worrying about can possibly be remote collaboration in a manifest evil. That’s what I worry about. Why do I say that? Because some unborn die as the result of abortion.

Being ambivalent about their proximity to Grace; their options as human beings to choose God; is a further nail in the coffin of the next 45 million to be wrongfully killed in their mother’s wombs.

Why do I say that? If the Church is ambivalent, or at the very least, less than clear about this, then how can we expect secular humanists to respect our position on abortion?

Either the unborn are human. Or they are not human.

If they are human then they have free will. If they have free will then they can choose God. If they can choose God, then they are not going to any part of Hell, including Limbo, because Hell is for those who choose against God.

If they are going to Limbo then this says that they have chosen as a class against God. This does not make sense to me.

Or it means that they are not human. This also does not make sense to me.

It also means that Limbo is not a part of Hell but another whole destination which must by definition include plants and animals.

Frankly, at this time, I wonder if the unborn would not be happier among plants and animals than among those who are ambivalent about their humanity? Those who in one breath loudly proclaim that human life is from conception until natural death and then turn around in the next breath and make it all complicated for those not fortunate enough to have been born.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

God is love, therefore Hell doesnt exist…

God is love. Some folks don’t want anything to do with God. Therefore Hell exists for those folks.

 

[VociMike]

But the Church is saying that they can know that the unborn cannot enter Heaven. That doesn’t make sense to me.

I am not aware that the Church claims to know this.

Perhaps you are confusing two issues. The Church does say that without the grace of baptism one cannot enter heaven, but she does not say that it is impossible for unbaptized babies to receive this grace in some other way.

And, like you, I find it inconceivable that God would not offer this possibility to them. Not force it upon them, but offer it to them.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I am not aware that the Church claims to know this.

Perhaps you are confusing two issues. The Church does say that without the grace of baptism one cannot enter heaven, but she does not say that it is impossible for unbaptized babies to receive this grace in some other way.

And, like you, I find it inconceivable that God would not offer this possibility to them. Not force it upon them, but offer it to them.

As long as the Church says that the unborn can receive grace in some other way than baptism, then I have no problem with the Church.