How is marriage defined when talked about in the Catechism?

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Basically my question is how is marriage defined when it’s talked about in the Catechism? Does it always mean sacramentally married?

Background to this question is that my wife and I were both baptized Catholic but until recently had been away from the Church. We were married in another Christian tradition and are legally married in the US. Is our marriage is consider invalid basically because of lack of form? I know that according to the Church I am free to marry because I’ve never been married within the Church nor have received a dispensation to get married outside. So does this mean when my wife and I have relations that it’s no different than two non-married people having sex (i.e Catechism 2353; fornication)? Or if one of us cheated on the other would that even be considered adultery? We do plan on getting sacramentally married and I’m sure the priest will cover some of this stuff (if not I’ll ask him). BUT for now I’m having these thoughts and wondering if I should be adding to my list of sins next time I go into the confession booth.

Thanks
Paul
 
paulbright said:
Basically my question is how is marriage defined when it’s talked about in the Catechism? Does it always mean sacramentally married?

Background to this question is that my wife and I were both baptized Catholic but until recently had been away from the Church. We were married in another Christian tradition and are legally married in the US. Is our marriage is consider invalid basically because of lack of form? I know that according to the Church I am free to marry because I’ve never been married within the Church nor have received a dispensation to get married outside. So does this mean when my wife and I have relations that it’s no different than two non-married people having sex (i.e Catechism 2353; fornication)? Or if one of us cheated on the other would that even be considered adultery? We do plan on getting sacramentally married and I’m sure the priest will cover some of this stuff (if not I’ll ask him). BUT for now I’m having these thoughts and wondering if I should be adding to my list of sins next time I go into the confession booth.

Thanks
Paul
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Yes, it is fornication and scandal to live together in this situation, and communion should be denied to you both while living together, according the Pope John Paul II. (I can provide the statement if you want it.)

There are two types of matrimony recognized by the Catholic Church: natural (both not validly baptized) and the sacrament (both validly baptized).

A person that celebrates marriage when a Catholic, is bound to have the approval of the Church for it to be a valid marriage. If that was not obtained, then there is no natural or sacrament of marriage, although there is a civil marriage.

If you intend to marry with approval of the Church, you could pursue a convalidation. It may be possible if there are no non-dispensable impediments and there is valid consent from each of you.
 
Basically my question is how is marriage defined when it’s talked about in the Catechism?
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vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm
Does it always mean sacramentally married?
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not always
We were married in another Christian tradition and are legally married in the US. Is our marriage is consider invalid basically because of lack of form?
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form in marriage is the desire to marry each other. and generally, legal marriages are valid.
So does this mean when my wife and I have relations that it’s no different than two non-married people having sex (i.e Catechism 2353; fornication)?
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no it is different.
We do plan on getting sacramentally married.
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that is not needed to my knowledge.
BUT for now I’m having these thoughts and wondering if I should be adding to my list of sins next time I go into the confession booth.
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you need not confess this.
 
Jack,

In order for Catholics to be validly married (and there are similar rules for Orthodox Christians) they need to be married according to Catholic form or receive a dispensation. If they’re not married in the Catholic form they are not validly married.

Telling the OP that he does not need to pursue a convalidation is incorrect. He is not married in the Catholic Church.
 
So basically my “wife” (I’ll use quotes from now on because I now feel like a mormon) and I are fornicators living in sin? Humm, that’s no bueno. Would have been nice for someone to have told us last year when we actually started going to church again! So many details to track in order to stay in a state of grace. Well at least we got the birth control part right so I’m not stacking up the violations! The remedial action to this situation then is to go confess I’m a fornicator and stop having relations with my “wife” until we have a proper sacramental marriage, right/? Uffda that’s going to be hard but like both Peter and Paul said, life aint easy with your foreigner living in a foreign land!

Thanks for the insight
PB
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
Jack,

In order for Catholics to be validly married (and there are similar rules for Orthodox Christians) they need to be married according to Catholic form or receive a dispensation. If they’re not married in the Catholic form they are not validly married.

Telling the OP that he does not need to pursue a convalidation is incorrect. He is not married in the Catholic Church.
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that is not a matter of validity but liceity.
 
paulbright said:
So basically my “wife” (I’ll use quotes from now on because I now feel like a mormon) and I are fornicators living in sin? Humm, that’s no bueno. Would have been nice for someone to have told us last year when we actually started going to church again! So many details to track in order to stay in a state of grace. Well at least we got the birth control part right so I’m not stacking up the violations! The remedial action to this situation then is to go confess I’m a fornicator and stop having relations with my “wife” until we have a proper sacramental marriage, right/? Uffda that’s going to be hard but like both Peter and Paul said, life aint easy with your foreigner living in a foreign land!

Thanks for the insight
PB
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you need not use quotes, that is your wife but get your marriage ratified so that it its liciety is not doubtful.
 
Jack007 said:
that is not a matter of validity but liceity.
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I don’t want to pull this off the OP’s topic – though his question seems to have been answered – but no, it goes to validity.

Here is info from the USCCB:

What is the difference between a valid and an invalid Catholic marriage?

Just as individual states have certain requirements for civil marriage (e.g., a marriage license, blood tests), the Catholic Church also has **requirements before Catholics can be considered validly married **in the eyes of the Church. A valid Catholic marriage results from four elements: (1) the spouses are free to marry; (2) they freely exchange their consent; (3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; and (4) their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister. Exceptions to the last requirement must be approved by church authority.

Here’s another one from the Diocese of Des Moines:
  1. I am a divorced Catholic and my prior marriage was not performed before a priest, deacon or bishop (it was before the justice of the peace or another Church). What is my status?
A) Your prior marriage was invalid (unless you received a dispensation from form) since it did not follow the required form of marriage required for Catholics. You may file an administrative process, called Lack of Form, which is very simple, takes less than thirty days and has a fee of $50. You would then be free to marry in the Church.
 
Reading through the CCC section on marriage in particular 1631 it makes sense why the Church wouldn’t consider us to have a valid marriage being we are both baptized Catholics. However, the Church does consider those not baptized Catholic but in other Christian traditions to have a valid marriage. Really all I want to know is what God thinks! Are we married or not in the eyes of God is my main concern. We took our vows seriously, in our hearts and with our words we committed to a lifelong partnership with God at the center and had every intention to start a family and raise our children as Christians (God willing). To me this fulfills the spiritual part of the marriage covenant as defined in the CCC. Now I understand as temporal beings who are (now) fully received Catholic individuals that we need to be received into the Church as a married couple which to me is fulfilling the earthly part of the marriage covenant as defined in the CCC, thus the need to go through the proper steps within the Church as well. Clearly though based on the difference of opinion here and elsewhere there really is no right answer. We are going through the process to get sacramentally married so I’m not too worried about it. My main concern has to with us offending God by acting as married couples are supposed to act… Because I’m all about NOT offending God every chance I get, Jesus already suffered too much at my hands!

Thanks for the link and the insight
Paul
 
Paul, it sounds like you’re doing everything possible to make things right. Work with your priest and be at peace! Prayers for you and your wife.
 
I appreciate the prayers! I wish I did everything right but thank you for the vote of confidence. I’m love being Catholic and am just trying to fall in line with the Church’s teachings.

Take care
 
paulbright said:
So basically my “wife” (I’ll use quotes from now on because I now feel like a mormon) and I are fornicators living in sin? Humm, that’s no bueno. Would have been nice for someone to have told us last year when we actually started going to church again! So many details to track in order to stay in a state of grace. Well at least we got the birth control part right so I’m not stacking up the violations! The remedial action to this situation then is to go confess I’m a fornicator and stop having relations with my “wife” until we have a proper sacramental marriage, right/? Uffda that’s going to be hard but like both Peter and Paul said, life aint easy with your foreigner living in a foreign land!

Thanks for the insight
PB
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Because the Church has the power to bind and loose sins for the spiritual benefit of the faithful, it has defined what constitutes valid matrimony. It requires the proper form of celebration. Also the Church checks for any impediments.

Absolution requires contrition which includes regret for the sin and the intention to avoid the near occasions of sin, including giving scandal.

From Pope John Paul II, 1981:

Catholics in Civil Marriages"The aim of pastoral action will be to make these people understand the need for consistency between their choice of life and the faith that they profess, and to try to do everything possible to induce them to regularize their situation in the light of Christian principle. While treating them with great charity and bringing them into the life of the respective communities, the pastors of the Church will regrettably not be able to admit them to the sacraments."
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html
 
Vico said:
Yes, it is fornication and scandal to live together in this situation, and communion should be denied to you both while living together, according the Pope John Paul II. (I can provide the statement if you want it.)

There are two types of matrimony recognized by the Catholic Church: natural (both not validly baptized) and the sacrament (both validly baptized).

A person that celebrates marriage when a Catholic, is bound to have the approval of the Church for it to be a valid marriage. If that was not obtained, then there is no natural or sacrament of marriage, although there is a civil marriage.

If you intend to marry with approval of the Church, you could pursue a convalidation. It may be possible if there are no non-dispensable impediments and there is valid consent from each of you.
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What you mean by this could be easily misunderstood. For instance, if Catholic by bad religious instruction did not understand the precepts of the Church concerning marriage, he or she might attempt a marriage in good faith that a better-catechized Catholic would have known is invalid and not a real marriage for him or her. Certainly a non-Catholic might believe in good faith that their consent was exchanged licitly with a Catholic and that all of Christendom would recognize their marriage. This is by no means equivalent to same two people fully understanding the moral laws of the Church choosing to have sex outside of marriage with no intention of ever exchanging vows! To say it is fornication is to say that objectively speaking there are marital relations going on without the benefit of marriage between two people who are not married to anyone else. That doesn’t mean anyone thinks their good-faith attempt at marriage is the equivalent of picking up a stranger at a bar.

Likewise, to say something is a scandal is not the same in moral law as using that word in colloquial speech. It does not mean that the action causes people to whisper or spread nasty gossip. It means that an action sets a gravely bad example for others or in some way leads others away from a virtuous life or towards one that is sinful for the person taking the action to heart. The example that doesn’t cause anyone to blink an eye might be very much worse than the one that upsets others, because the one that escapes any public criticism can be a teaching moment of an idea contrary to the truth for those who do not know better.

OP, I don’t think anyone here believes that you and your wife did not intend all the goods of marriage when you exchanged your vows, including fidelity, chastity, and an indissoluble bond. They mean that once any of us knows that our consent was not exchanged in a valid way, we are bound to exchange it in a valid way. If, for example, you had been married by someone who had no civil authority to officiate at your marriage and who therefore never filed your paperwork with the state, of course you would understand that the state would not recognize you as two married persons. You would be considered unmarried until you exchanged vows in a way that was in keeping with the laws of your state concerning marriage. Well, as it turns out, being Catholic is a state you can never leave. Therefore, a Catholic is bound to follow the laws of marriage of their “home state” in order for their “state” (that is, the Church) to recognize the marriage. Once you realize this, you are expected to act as if you are not legally married, because you are not. No one blames you for making an honest mistake, but it is required to have it cleared up.
 
Vico, good post feel free to expand on it more. Thanks for the references and link.

At the time my wife and I were married we did not choose a civil marriage over a sacramental marriage. Neither one of us had a clue about what a sacrament was being my wife was only baptized in Catholic church but not raised in the faith at all. I was a confirmed Catholic then had left the faith and practice over 15 years prior to when I even met my wife. We wanted a Christian marriage and we were married in a church by an ordained Lutheran pastor. So it was not a case of ignoring the Church’s teaching and getting married by a judge or in spite of what our priest was telling us. I think that type of situation is more of what St John Paul was referring to in the piece you quoted. Had we known we would have been sacramentally married. Even when we started thinking about rejoining the Church as I learned more about the sacraments we both knew we wanted to receive the matrimony sacrament. We been in the process of being cleared to do so and will at the first chance we can. i say all this to make the point that if the Church makes concessions about mortal sin in that you have to know what you did was wrong, I gotta think the Church would honor a Christian marriage if the couple wasn’t even aware of the requirements for a valid Catholic marriage. Really for all practical purposes we were two non-Catholic Christians getting married and I know the Church will accept those as valid marriages.

Am I way off base in what I’m thinking? I would like to hear more of your thoughts. Thanks.
 
EasterJoy said:
What you mean by this could be easily misunderstood. For instance, if Catholic by bad religious instruction did not understand the precepts of the Church concerning marriage, he or she might attempt a marriage in good faith that a better-catechized Catholic would have known is invalid and not a real marriage for him or her. Certainly a non-Catholic might believe in good faith that their consent was exchanged licitly with a Catholic and that all of Christendom would recognize their marriage. This is by no means equivalent to same two people fully understanding the moral laws of the Church choosing to have sex outside of marriage with no intention of ever exchanging vows! To say it is fornication is to say that objectively speaking there are marital relations going on without the benefit of marriage between two people who are not married to anyone else. That doesn’t mean anyone thinks their good-faith attempt at marriage is the equivalent of picking up a stranger at a bar.

Likewise, to say something is a scandal is not the same in moral law as using that word in colloquial speech. It does not mean that the action causes people to whisper or spread nasty gossip. It means that an action sets a gravely bad example for others or in some way leads others away from a virtuous life or towards one that is sinful for the person taking the action to heart. The example that doesn’t cause anyone to blink an eye might be very much worse than the one that upsets others, because the one that escapes any public criticism can be a teaching moment of an idea contrary to the truth for those who do not know better.

OP, I don’t think anyone here believes that you and your wife did not intend all the goods of marriage when you exchanged your vows, including fidelity, chastity, and an indissoluble bond. They mean that once any of us knows that our consent was not exchanged in a valid way, we are bound to exchange it in a valid way. If, for example, you had been married by someone who had no civil authority to officiate at your marriage and who therefore never filed your paperwork with the state, of course you would understand that the state would not recognize you as two married persons. You would be considered unmarried until you exchanged vows in a way that was in keeping with the laws of your state concerning marriage. Well, as it turns out, being Catholic is a state you can never leave. Therefore, a Catholic is bound to follow the laws of marriage of their “home state” in order for their “state” (that is, the Church) to recognize the marriage. Once you realize this, you are expected to act as if you are not legally married, because you are not. No one blames you for making an honest mistake, but it is required to have it cleared up.
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It is an objective sin, with regard to Catholic matrimony, because there was no approval of the Church (for a Catholic). It does not imply culpability. Scandal may be given by actions that are objectively sinful or actions that are not objectively sinful, and without regard for culpability. Therefore the Church must protect against that. Once a couple knows the teaching of the Church, then there can be culpability when freely chosen.
 
Easter- great answer, excellent analogy about the state. Looks like we best get separate bedrooms! How strange but like I mentioned before my concern is to not offend God and Ill do whatever it takes to make sure that’s true in my house. Thanks for info.
 
paulbright said:
Oh heavens no! Haha I don’t know if you’re joking but we’ve always been Christians.
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i thought you did and i based my posts on that! did you formally convert to any non catholic religion or just ‘fell away’?

when you go to confession, dont just say the sin, but also about the marriage which will help the priest to discern properly.
 
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