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SuscipeMeDomine
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Since the change in canon law in 2008 it doesn’t matter since one can no longer formally defect from the Catholic Church; hence a Catholic is bound to Catholic laws on marriage.
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Jack007
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thank you SuscipeMeDomine
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paulbright
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No we didn’t formally convert to anything else. My wife was literally baptized as a baby and her parents converted to AG like months later. So my wife was raised in the AG church. I was confirmed Catholic and generally practiced until I was 19 or so. Then started to get disinterested in it and went to various other Christian churches. I got a pretty good view of Lutheran, Methodist, Reformed and several non-denominational churches. I learned that there are some things these other Christians do really well (like preaching, music ministry, and pretty much anything that ignites strong emotional reactions in people) but there is a lot missing too which is why I returned to the real Church 15+ years later. At the time my wife and I were married we were attending a non-denominational Christian church and were married by an ordained Lutheran pastor who was a good spiritual mentor to me for many years. I never formally converted to anything, I just experienced and absorbed some of the other Christian flavors out there in the world. In my experience there are some good sideshows out there that can be an enriching experience in some ways; but none of them offer the complete package like the Church offers. It makes me mourn inside for all those who are good honest God-fearing people that are missing out on what it can really be like if you’re dialed into the Church.
So a Catholic is like a Marine huh? Once a Catholic, always a Catholic no matter what choice you make! It’s interesting because for most of us “cradle Catholics” that choice was made for us and, unfortunately, those making that decision for us didn’t follow through on teaching us the full ramifications and responsibilities of such membership! At least that’s the case for me and a lot of people I know.
So a Catholic is like a Marine huh? Once a Catholic, always a Catholic no matter what choice you make! It’s interesting because for most of us “cradle Catholics” that choice was made for us and, unfortunately, those making that decision for us didn’t follow through on teaching us the full ramifications and responsibilities of such membership! At least that’s the case for me and a lot of people I know.
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Jack007
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i see. did you marry before 2008?
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paulbright
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We were married in 2011 so no grandfather clause applies here. We’re not looking for a loophole and clearly we should abstain from marital relations until we’ve been sacramentally married. That will be much harder for me than for her but that’s life as a guy in general!
Jack- I see you’re from India, yes? I don’t know how familiar you are with religion in America but we have A LOT of protestant denominations of Christianity and if you start looking at differences many of them come down to splitting a few theological hairs (that is between the denominations themselves; vast difference though between the Catholic and Orthodox Church). Some groups claim to be Christian but are not (LDS, Jehova Witness, Christian Science, etc). I only mention this because I know that in some parts of the world being Christian means you’re Catholic or Orthodox, not sure if India is like that or not. So for us, it’s easy to be part of another denomination without actually converting or even really committing to it’s particular doctrine. Thus the reason I consider myself as have taken a side road on in my Christian life not necessarily leaving the real Chruch. Hope that makes sense
And to add to that many of us Catholics were “born into” the faith but not really raised by practicing Catholics. A lot of parents will have their children baptized in the Church but at the same time don’t really practice or follow the Church’s teachings in most other areas of their life. So many of us were baptized Catholic, maybe got confirmed and possibly went to Sunday Mass (or in my case went to Mass on holidays) but were never really given a strong foundation in the Church’s teaching. I walked away from the Church because I didn’t really understand most of what it teaches, nor did I care really because it was never really part of how I grew up. So it took me 15+ years to figure out how amazing the Church really is and why following it’s teachings really is the best way to live!
Jack- I see you’re from India, yes? I don’t know how familiar you are with religion in America but we have A LOT of protestant denominations of Christianity and if you start looking at differences many of them come down to splitting a few theological hairs (that is between the denominations themselves; vast difference though between the Catholic and Orthodox Church). Some groups claim to be Christian but are not (LDS, Jehova Witness, Christian Science, etc). I only mention this because I know that in some parts of the world being Christian means you’re Catholic or Orthodox, not sure if India is like that or not. So for us, it’s easy to be part of another denomination without actually converting or even really committing to it’s particular doctrine. Thus the reason I consider myself as have taken a side road on in my Christian life not necessarily leaving the real Chruch. Hope that makes sense
And to add to that many of us Catholics were “born into” the faith but not really raised by practicing Catholics. A lot of parents will have their children baptized in the Church but at the same time don’t really practice or follow the Church’s teachings in most other areas of their life. So many of us were baptized Catholic, maybe got confirmed and possibly went to Sunday Mass (or in my case went to Mass on holidays) but were never really given a strong foundation in the Church’s teaching. I walked away from the Church because I didn’t really understand most of what it teaches, nor did I care really because it was never really part of how I grew up. So it took me 15+ years to figure out how amazing the Church really is and why following it’s teachings really is the best way to live!
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SuscipeMeDomine
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And that’s a huge issue that people don’t understand. Parents may seek baptism for their children and see it as a mere ceremony or do it because the grandparents insist, not realizing that they are making a lifetime commitment for their children.
I had a conversation like this with a Catholic friend. She is seeing a guy who is Protestant but assured me that he was OK with the idea of being married in the Catholic Church and baptizing their children as Catholics. Then she said that they agreed that the kids would receive First Communion but not Confirmation so they would have a choice at that point of being Catholic or Protestant.
I just said “That ship has sailed. Once you baptize them they’re Catholic and they can’t become un-Catholic. They can be non-practicing Catholics or non-fully-initiated Catholics, but they’re still Catholic by virtue of the their baptisms.” She had no idea. And she’s a Catholic who goes to Mass every week!
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paulbright
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Yup! One thing I’ve learned since coming back into the fold is that A LOT of Catholics don’t actually understand much about what the Church teaches. I know things because I have a passion for theology and take it upon my self to learn. The more I learn the more I realize on how much I’ve missed out on over the years. My parents had no clue. My dad was raised by a fairly devout Catholic woman so he understood the importance of getting me baptized and confirmed. However, my parents didn’t necessarily live a Catholic lifestyle. They baptized me Catholic and made go to CCD because that was basically my grandmother’s wishes (who was a devout Catholic). My parents went to church on holidays and when my grandma was in town. My mom has never actually become Catholic but they did receive a proper Catholic marriage (over 50 years ago now). I have a lot of theories on why this gap between my Grandmas generation and the past 50+ years or so that seems to have missed the boat on how to properly education and indoctrinate your children appropriately… But I’ll spare you and save it for my doctoral dissertation some day
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Jack007
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yes,baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. and what do you mean more by weekly mass attendance? isnt it a law of the church? why shouldn’t anyone celebrate it?
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EasterJoy
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Yes. Not to be too flippant, but we have recognized we are a version of the “Hotel California”–you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave!
Seriously, though, this isn’t an administrative thing. You don’t change who your blood relatives are by a name change and you do not change the mark of baptism by deciding to live as if the mark is not a permanent part of you. If you physically leave and come back, it is like the Prodigal Son. You were a son before you left, a son while you were gone, and no less a son when you come back. Who you are did not change because you failed to see it or someone failed to tell you about your identity. A princeling kidnapped as a child is not taken out of the line of succession. He is who he is, even if he does not know it, even if he fails the duties that come with it, even if he tries to deny it.
Therefore, when a Catholic returns, you repent where you were at fault, you confess, you are forgiven with great joy, there is a party, you are back as a full member of the household, and those of us who do not need a talking to out back will of course rejoice about it!
In other words, OP, the main thing is that you are back! *Hurray!! *Since you and your wife are Catholics who have only ever attempted marriage with each other, it should not be difficult to have your marriage convalidated. Go ask your pastor about it right away.
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paulbright
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Jack- yeah weekly mass attendance is a requirement but again here in America people don’t always know or understand the teachings of the Church even though they were brought up Catholic and attend Mass on Sundays. Between our very secular culture and the multitude of other protestant Christian denominations that we’re exposed to here, many people have a really hard time believing that have to follow ALL the Church’s teachings. That’s a bigger discussion and most Catholics on this forum are not of this type (which is why they’re here, because they are seeking to understand). But with 75+ million Catholics in America, statistically many many of those are not what I would call active Catholics; i.e. ones that are actively seeking to understand and grow in their faith. Many are asleep just going through the motions because that’s what they’ve always done. Unfortunately complacency is one downside to living in such a “free” country where everyone is allowed to think and believe what they want, people take for granted the great gift they’ve been given. Praise God though they are with us but it’s our responsibility to help wake them up!
Easter- another great post, your analogies are so spot on and easy to understand… Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Easter- another great post, your analogies are so spot on and easy to understand… Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
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EasterJoy
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Let us be clear, though: Every person who knows the Catholic Church to be the one, holy, universal, and apostolic Church has a duty to accept this truth and to seek to be received into the Church. If you know the truth, there is no second option to find something more to your liking. We know that some are prevented because they do not have the gift of grace to accept it, others have not heard the Gospel, others do not know they need to be baptized and so on–the full list of reasons are known to God alone–but we also know that it is profoundly wrong to willfully reject the graces available to those whose hearts do hear the invitation to join the Church. This is a serious thing, and the recognition since Vatican II that it is not up to us to judge those who do not join does not mean there is no duty for us to evangelize. This is why Catholic parents are bound to do their best to have their children baptized and to raise them in the faith!
Some find this offensive, but I do not know why. I am not offended by Muslims who think I need to become Muslim or Mormons who think I need to become Mormon or even atheists who think that there is some damage done to me by believing in God. There is no arrogance in trying to save someone from what you believe to be a great danger, so while I think they are wrong-headed I can still believe their hearts are in the right place. Provided we all accept that no one can be forced to see what they do not see, I do not see anything in this to take offense at in any of it.
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SuscipeMeDomine
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As Paul said, yes, it is a law of the Church.
However – in the US at least – there are many, many, many people who describe themselves as Catholic but attend Mass on Christmas, Easter, and for weddings. If such a person had the same misconceptions as my friend, I wouldn’t be particularly surprised. (If they don’t “get” that they need to go to Mass, why would they “get” what baptism means?)
But in this case, we’re talking about someone who is a practicing Catholic. She went to Catholic schools and attends Mass regularly, yet she still didn’t understand what the Church teaches in this area.
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Jack007
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i see. i was a bit surprised when i heard this as this is something not common in kerala. my parish is the cathedral, yet it is so crowded and we are trying to renovate it.
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paulbright
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Jack007-
It is good to hear the Church is thriving where you’re at! A big part of the problem here is too many options. People can easily go to some other parish or switch altogether to some protestant church. When the Church is challenging their way of living or telling them their out of line instead of changing their lives or themselves to fall in line with the Church they’ll just change parishes (because there are a lot of them around especially if you live in a big city). Or worse yet they will leave the Church altogether and go find some protestant church that fits with how they want to live. Like I said, many people take for granted here the great blessing of the Church… not all obviously but there are a lot of the 75 million American Catholics that do.
I will pray for your parish, it’s good to know there are places in the world where people are knocking down the doors to get in the church!! You all must be doing something right
PS- How are the exams going?
Paul
It is good to hear the Church is thriving where you’re at! A big part of the problem here is too many options. People can easily go to some other parish or switch altogether to some protestant church. When the Church is challenging their way of living or telling them their out of line instead of changing their lives or themselves to fall in line with the Church they’ll just change parishes (because there are a lot of them around especially if you live in a big city). Or worse yet they will leave the Church altogether and go find some protestant church that fits with how they want to live. Like I said, many people take for granted here the great blessing of the Church… not all obviously but there are a lot of the 75 million American Catholics that do.
I will pray for your parish, it’s good to know there are places in the world where people are knocking down the doors to get in the church!! You all must be doing something right
PS- How are the exams going?
Paul
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Jack007
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that is sad. so usa has my prayers.
er, thank you. and did you know that my sui iuris church was founded by st. thomas the apostle,that we are the 2nd largest eastern church(and all of them go to mass,some even daily)and have never broken communion with the pope!It is good to hear the Church is thriving where you’re at!
I will pray for your parish, it’s good to know there are places in the world where people are knocking down the doors to get in the church!! You all must be doing something right
theology very well, hope to get** more** than 95%.english and malayalam more than 93. thanks for your prayers and continue them.
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