How is one Saved – (An exercise in terminology, definitions and communication)

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Barbkw said:
How is one Saved?

Mentally accept that the Trinity exists. Change your adult emotional attitudes into a childlike obedience; let Jesus and the Holy Spirit befriend and indwell your thoughts. Transform your daily actions from negative acts of commission and ommission and replace them with positive acts which benefit communion with God and with all His people.
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I like this! 👍 And would just add, ask for forgiveness when it happens that one does not do these things.

Jon
 
JRKH said:
This discussion / excercise is inteneded mainly for our Sola Fide brothers.
So please be courtious and allow them to respond.

For the sake of discussion and as an exercise in conveying meaning, Please answer the title question WITHOUT using the term “Faith”.
In other words, we must use terms that describe what we mean by the term “faith” without actually using the term.

Faith – The oft-used term for how we are saved is removed from the vocabulary of this exercise

I am hoping to accomplish a couple of things here.
  1. See what people understand and wish ot convey when they use the term faith, and what they understand when they hear “faith” in the sense of salvation
  2. Get a better understanding about how people view the various components that make up a “saving faith”. (Such and such comprise faith) and/or (this and that are evidence of faith)
Please do not use ‘cut and paste” answers. I’d much prefer if you would answer in your own words. Naturally Bible references are most welcome and indeed encouraged.

As I am seeking greater understanding, I will try to restrict my responses to asking further questions.

Thoughts?

Peace
James
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As to the question of how is one saved (without using the word faith) I would answer: We are saved by God’s grace through belief and good works.
  1. I would say faith = a mental process of belief in the grace of God. I don’t think belief includes other actions. In my opinion (a mental process) and works (an action) are seperate things. Obedience, for example, would be a “good work”. Good works must be added to belief (faith + works). Everything gets complicated after that when figuring out what a particular scripture is saying (especially in regards to “works of the law” and “good works”).
2)The term “saving faith” kind of bothers me (because I believe faith is a mental process). And a mental process by itself does not save us (because even the demons believe in Jesus). Belief must be coupled with good action.

Further questions JRKH?
 
ryanoneil said:
As to the question of how is one saved (without using the word faith) I would answer: We are saved by God’s grace through belief and good works.
  1. I would say faith = a mental process of belief in the grace of God. I don’t think belief includes other actions. In my opinion (a mental process) and works (an action) are seperate things. Obedience, for example, would be a “good work”. Good works must be added to belief (faith + works). Everything gets complicated after that when figuring out what a particular scripture is saying (especially in regards to “works of the law” and “good works”).
2)The term “saving faith” kind of bothers me (because I believe faith is a mental process). And a mental process by itself does not save us (because even the demons believe in Jesus). Belief must be coupled with good action.

Further questions JRKH?
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I think this says it pretty well.
To me, the term faith is tossed out far to easily and without sufficient care given to what “faith” entails.
Above, you mentioned the need for works and you say, "Good works must be added to belief (faith + works)", and immediately confuse me by seeming to use “Belief” and “faith” as though they are synomomous. However, you seem to traightenit out at the end, “Belief must be coupled with good action”.
To me, Faith is a composite term that is more than belief though belif is necessary. It compprises trust, and commitment, and an internalization of the principles of our beliefs such that works flow out of us as natually as we inhale and exhale.
So I would not say (faith +works) but rather (belief + committment + works) = faith.

Peace
James
 
For one to be saved, one has to enter the kingdom of God “immaculately”= in splendor, with out spot or wrinkle, holy". The scriptures teach that this cleansing takes place by the bath of water with the Word. Faith cannot save you, only grace and mercy from God can save you. Jesus placed a condition to being saved = cleansed by bath of water with the Word.

From this condition of being saved, the saved become one flesh with Jesus who makes us holy. For no man can be holy without Jesus.

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her
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to sanctify her, **cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, **
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that **he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. **
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So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
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For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
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because we are members of his body.
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“For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and **the two shall become one flesh.” **
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This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
 
JRKH said:
I think this says it pretty well.
To me, the term faith is tossed out far to easily and without sufficient care given to what “faith” entails.
Above, you mentioned the need for works and you say, "Good works must be added to belief (faith + works)", and immediately confuse me by seeming to use “Belief” and “faith” as though they are synomomous. However, you seem to traightenit out at the end, “Belief must be coupled with good action”.
To me, Faith is a composite term that is more than belief though belif is necessary. It compprises trust, and commitment, and an internalization of the principles of our beliefs such that works flow out of us as natually as we inhale and exhale.
So I would not say (faith +works) but rather (belief + committment + works) = faith.

Peace
James
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Hi James. When I say Belief must be coupled with good action, I’m saying faith + works. Both Paul and James distinguish between the two. They are two seperate things, but they are always coupled together in scripture when it comes to salvation.

I’ll comment again when it is not so late. Peace
 
I think “works” cause an issue that need more definition…Are works themselves salvic or are they what brings us rewards or lack of them…What a work is also comes into play. Some say me responding to the draw of the Holy Spirit a work, when Jesus says about ministry to those around us a works…Then also if the works themselves are salvic, how do we know then
when we’ve did enough to make the grade? A vibrant walk will reveal service done unto the Lord, but it’s a natural response to the Christ’s. love working in a reborn nature which I call a labor of love…Grace and peace to you…
 
Hiskid,
You bring up some good points and I shall try to address them. I agree that the definition of works can be an isue between Catholics and Protestants since Paul talks against works (of the Law) as being sufficient to save. James likewise, in speaking of the necessity of works, is speaking, not of following a set prescription of acts (such as the OT law entailed), but rather an outprouring of Love toward one’s fellow man.
So when I speak of “works” in a Chrisitan sense I speak of those things we are propted to do because of the Grace and Love of God for us and our proper response to that Love.

Now - you mention about, depending on how one views works, “how do we know when we’ve done enough…?” A good question and one that can get us into trouble if we are not careful.
The short answer is that we “know we’ve done enough” when we stand before Christ at Judgement and he says to us, “Well done good and faithful servant”.
So then one needs to ask, what constitutes a “good and faithful servant”?
Is it not one who believe wholeheartedly in the goodness of his master and seeks, in every waking moment:
to work for the good of his master; to discharge his duties (the commands of his master) in ways pleasing to the master?
to promote and protect the welfare and good standing of his master (Give glory to)?
to protect his master even to the cost of his own life?
to respond to every command of his master with joy and dispatch?
to never speak ill of his master?
to serve the master’s friends with the same desire to please so that he please his master? to keep himself at all times healthy and fit for service to his master?

Now the thing to remember here is that these things are not and accounting of how many or how much but rather an attitude that says, “I am my master’s servant and I will daily do my best in service to him”, which naturally requires action - as the Master directs. It is not sufficient to simply say “I am my master’s servant” and then do nothing. Likewise it is insufficient to claim to be the master’s servant and then willfully discharge your duties in a haphazard and “just get by” sort of way, for in Luke 17:10, Jesus tells us:
So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"
Thus are we called to grow in holiness before God daily so that we may remain in the master’s good graces and receive the reward of a “Good and Faithful Servant”.

So - Are the works themselves salvific? I suppose that depends upon from what source they spring.

Peace
James
 
Hiskid1973 said:
I think “works” cause an issue that need more definition…Are works themselves salvic or are they what brings us rewards or lack of them…What a work is also comes into play. Some say me responding to the draw of the Holy Spirit a work, when Jesus says about ministry to those around us a works…Then also if the works themselves are salvic, how do we know then
when we’ve did enough to make the grade? A vibrant walk will reveal service done unto the Lord, but it’s a natural response to the Christ’s. love working in a reborn nature which I call a labor of love…Grace and peace to you…
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We will know if we made the grade when as the bible tells us on Judgement day. On that day we will be judged according to our works.

That is when Christ will say if our works were good or not. Many people say works are not necessary to get into heaven. That is not true. It is by our works, anotherwards how did we live out our faith?

Did we do all we could do for everyone? Did we love? Did we help oneanother? Did we turn the other cheek? Did we keep holy the Lords day? Did we Pray? Did we confess our sins? Did we eat the bread and blood of Christ?

IMO when we meet God face to face WE know what our heart was like on this earth. And so does God. There are 2 people in this world you cannot fool Yourself and God. Oh you can try. But its not possible. You know what you are made of inside.

We all know our faults and we all have them. It is for us to change and it is God and his Grace that make that possible.

Embrace your faults and ask God to take them away. Do not deny your sins, confess them, rid yourself of them. And ask God to replace them with Grace which is HIS GOOD WORKS.

Good works is only letting God use your body to do his will. It is giving up your free will to do his will. And you will find when this happens you are more rich and happier then you could ever imagine.

Money, stress, all of the anxiety’s just slip away. They just become a live in the moment for you. Instead of worrying about what will happen it becomes get through this second with Christ in your heart. And then if you got through that first second the rest will follow just fine.

It becomes a whole different way of life. A small taste of heaven. Because if you think about it whatever God wants is going to happen anyway. No one can change it. God’s will should become our will. And who loves us more then God. He won’t let anyone hurt us.
 
JRKH said:
Hiskid,

So when I speak of “works” in a Chrisitan sense I speak of those things we are prompted to do because of the Grace and Love of God for us and our proper response to that Love.

Now - you mention about, depending on how one views works, “how do we know when we’ve done enough…?” A good question and one that can get us into trouble if we are not careful.

Peace
James
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Amen(bolded). I think most here would agree…As for what is minimum to get by, I don’t mean that sense but a person that always feels they don’t do enough or anything worthy and lives in a fearful state always wondering…My body is in rough shape from complications from a fall at work. I don’t do much ministry now in fact haven been to church in 9 months and every week my wife gives me a list of name of people who miss me as they say I am an encouragement to them because of my strong faith…I don’t walk in a fear or discouragement because I am not “doing” much…I’s hard for me to explain
that I don’t feel I have to perform to be counted worthy…Great blessings of Christ to you,beloved by our Lord…
 
Hiskid1973 said:
Amen(bolded). I think most here would agree…As for what is minimum to get by, I don’t mean that sense but a person that always feels they don’t do enough or anything worthy and lives in a fearful state always wondering…My body is in rough shape from complications from a fall at work. I don’t do much ministry now in fact haven been to church in 9 months and every week my wife gives me a list of name of people who miss me as they say I am an encouragement to them because of my strong faith…I don’t walk in a fear or discouragement because I am not “doing” much…I’s hard for me to explain
that I don’t feel I have to perform to be counted worthy…Great blessings of Christ to you,beloved by our Lord…
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Hiskid,
You are obviously one of great faith, and the fact that your wife brings you these greetings from your brothers and sisters in Christ is testimony to that fact.

The great thing about our Master is his loyalty to those loyal to Him. He will not “discharge” us because we are laid up and unable to perform our normal duties, but instead He will give us things to do that are commensurate to our abilities at present.

For instance - In your present condition, unable to do all that you would like, you find new opportunities. You have more time for prayer and mediation on Scripture. You have time to pray, not only for yourself but for the intentions of others. You afford others the opporunity to do God’s work by supporting and helping you. You also have the opporunity to learn many valuable lessons in things like humility and gracious accepteance of the help of others. You can grow to recognize more thoroughly, through the love of your wife and your brothers and sisters in Christ, the great Love that God has for His broken and sometimes grumpy, children.

Yes, even though you are unable to do the types of ministries you normally would, this certainly doesn’t mean that our Master doesn’t have things for you to do…

If you can go to bed each night and say, Father, I have tried today to do all for your Glory. Accept my successes and forgive my failures, for though I am a poor servant who has done mo more than my duty, I do all for Love.
If you can honestly, in your heart profess this at the end of each day, then God will respond, “well done good and faithful servant”, and more, he will say “well done my good and faithful child”.

Peace
James
 
Thanks for your comments.Yes I get plenty of time to pray…
 
Hiskid1973 said:
Thanks for your comments.Yes I get plenty of time to pray…
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Amen to that. And even prayer is a work of charity and a way to open ourselves up to even greater learning so that the Lord may more fully use us…
As I said, even injured and incapacitated, ill or suffering and facing death, our stern but Loving Father has things for us to do. To paraphrase Jesus at age twelve in the temple, We must all be “about our Father’s business”.

Peace
James
 
The way I think of it is by making a comparison to doctors.

Because a person knows about and trusts doctors, he goes to a doctor when he is sick. And further, because he trusts the doctor, he obeys the doctors orders, does what the doctor says in order to get well. (He has “faith” in the doctor.)

It is the same way with Jesus. Because we know about and have decided to trust Jesus, we go to Him and further, because we trust Him, we obey Jesus’ orders on salvation. (We have “faith” in Jesus.)

Note that simple knowing about and trusting doctors is not what makes us well. Similarly, it is not simply knowing about and trusting Jesus that makes us saved. We must go to Jesus and then obey Him And we do that because we trust Him and His ability to keep His promises.

That is why the term “Sola Fide” or “faith alone” is so misleading. “Faith” alone does nothing, but it is strong enough belief and trust causing us to act upon it that is necessary.
 
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